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+--- Thread: Story Railroading. (/showthread.php?tid=191386)
RE: Story Railroading. - Creutzfeuer - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 11:39 AM)Markam Wrote: However, the screenshots he showed of myself trying to, back in October, encourage the Liberty player base to interact with the movement happening in Penny was an attempt to hint at where story is moving, so they could interact with it. I was told to uh, well, I was not welcome.
I have to ask the obvious questions here, which sprung to mind after re-reading your post:
You had the "story"-line worked out internally beforehand, right? (Must be, judging by the very existence of this thread.)
You then went to the Liberty player base and actively tried to railroad them so they can add flavour to your (read: team of story devs) pre-set "story" - is this correct?
And you actively wonder aloud here, why people rejected your approach? (Granted, tone and language should remain civil.)
Do you maybe see a problem there?
Maybe?
If I am mistaken about how it happened, I will apologize to you.
If however my assumption was correct, then ...stuff... has to be fixed on a very basic level.
RE: Story Railroading. - Haste - 02-07-2022
I must admit I hardly read any of the OP, so bear with me. This'll just be my personal take on how I think Story should function, rather than a direct response to Saronsen's specific grievance. That seems to be the direction this thread has been heading anyways.
I don't think players should hold positions of "political power" in the game universe. I don't think =LSF= represents the LSF NPC faction. I don't think [R] represents the Rogues, and so on and so forth. They're simply players banding together, and ideally should represent some sort of high quality faction people may want to join and/or interact with. But for Story purposes, they are simply another cog in the machine.
This is of course a big change from how things were ran when the DWG were still around. Anyone who was around to witness that knows it didn't exactly work. A simple glance at any faction's repsheet shows why: they all have an ally or two, and then a handful of enemies. Each faction then wants to take a bite out of one of their enemies and take a base asset or something. And then the faction on the receiving end of that "claim" will (somewhat understandably) scream and shout that they don't want to lose that asset. Both factions have their say and Story decides their wishes are incompatible. They cancel out. Absolutely nothing happens.
We've moved away from this. Saronsen now has about as much to say about the LSF NPC faction's Story direction as I do: not a whole lot, and certainly no more than any other player in the community. I do think we may have failed to communicate this clearly.
I believe larger story arcs should be decided by the Story team. Simple. Players can of course contribute with ideas if they so desire (I believe we have a subforum for such requests) and those ideas may in fact be used if they're good, but no individual player should have any more influence on the story than another. This does of course mean that we have to have a competent Story team that (at the very least) a majority of the playerbase can trust and rely on. They'll have to do some Good Stuff™ first to build that trust with the playerbase.
Random note: no, I don't believe that stopping players from deciding which House goes to war with which House or what planet a faction should attempt to colonize really restricts their roleplay options. Sirius is a big place with a lot of funky lore and a huge number of options for how to roleplay within it. All people need to do is reduce the scope of their stories from House-wide super-mega-important to more character-based/individual. Basically: fewer admirals, more lieutenants.
I do think we can satisfy players' desire for more agency/room to impact a "canon story". I think @Treewyrm is currently doing a good job of it with his Nomad (not-so-)mini-arc. Players who get involved with it are free to shape the story and take it in all sorts of directions, though the beginning and the end of it are (as far as I know) mostly set in stone. He's acting as a DM for a very specific storyline and I think that's something we should explore more. Having a DM per region directing an interesting story with a slightly more limited scope (read: it doesn't decide whether Liberty goes to war with Rheinland or not) that still has tangible effects on the game universe sounds like a good idea to me. The issue likely is finding the right, unbiased candidates for such a position.
RE: Story Railroading. - Miaou - 02-07-2022
Imagine thinking you own and control your npc faction. Imagine thinking discovery or any actually functional roleplay server lets their players freely dictate the flow of the persistent world without at least vetting the ideas. Imagine thinking 98% of the ideas current players come up with are worthwhile for story direction.
Imagine dragons.
RE: Story Railroading. - Saronsen - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 03:52 PM)Haste Wrote: I must admit I hardly read any
Then what's the point? If we the players have no effect on the world, and will continue to have no effect, including all past, present, and future roleplay, what's the point? Why should I or many others have any interest in the uninteresting forced plots Story puts out besides being a bit player? A literal extra that simply doesn't exist? Why allow player governments to exist, or official factions to exist, if not to allow for player agency? If you're actually honest with your opinion that players should have no involvement in the story, then you'd better put your money where your mouth is, and get rid of official factions and player controls of laws/governments/etc entirely.
RE: Story Railroading. - Groshyr - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 02:28 PM)Darkstar_Spectre Wrote:(02-07-2022, 11:02 AM)DarkTails Wrote: (See: Peace Talks)
AKA see two people in IN| on their other factions circlejerking with the leader of IN|.
A very cool and good example of "effort" being put into the future, clearly enough to warrant every future change being directed at preserving this beautiful alliance.
To rephrase the proverb: RP is in the imagination of the beholder. You, my darling Darkie-chan, apparently have no imagination. Probably it got stolen by the leprechauns, you to know better.
Nevertheless, allow me to explain: you can't expect on a server with 1.5 people the situations when people are in multiple factions to RP with each other not to occur. If you do expect this, then the theory of probability has bad news for you
RE: Story Railroading. - Miaou - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 04:31 PM)Saronsen Wrote: Why allow player governments to exist, or official factions to exist, if not to allow for player agency?
Reminder that "player house governments" don't actually hold any power and only really came from official factions banding together and using their combined faction rights to help dictate and regulate more standardized things like pobs and updating house laws.
At no point we're they supposed to play the government as a whole, just the smaller bureaucratic departments. Players just assume and the staff didn't correct. Bit of a whoopsies on all sides.
As for official factions, you exist to showcase what the faction is about and help guide players to act in line with the faction, such is why some faction rights exist to assist in keeping indies in line so we don't have KNF ships making friends with blood dragons and skipping down the lanes.
You don't control your npc faction. You can suggest direction for it like anyone else and perhaps staff should consider the 1ic's suggestions a bit more. However they don't have to accept your suggestions and I don't blame any staff from ignoring often times bad player suggestions.
Imagine being wrong. Imagine dragons. Imagine radioactive.
RE: Story Railroading. - Haste - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 04:31 PM)Saronsen Wrote: Then what's the point? If we the players have no effect on the world, and will continue to have no effect, including all past, present, and future roleplay, what's the point?
Same as any other roleplay setting that's "bigger than the players". Play out your character's role within the setting itself, focusing on the character's development, inter-character relationships and whatever else. See where in-game interactions lead your character. I suppose this is easy for me to say as I've generally focused on lower-ranking, more independent characters. Playing a very high-ranking officer without major story influence is of course tricky and restrictive, but then there's nobody forcing players to make all their characters The Big Cheese™ of their faction.
(02-07-2022, 04:31 PM)Saronsen Wrote: If you're actually honest with your opinion that players should have no involvement in the story, then you'd better put your money where your mouth is, and get rid of official factions and player controls of laws/governments/etc entirely.
Yes, I am actually honest when I say that I believe players should not be deciding the major story arcs and big sweeping changes in Sirius, such as House wars or, more generally, large-scale conflicts between factions. I don't think official factions are currently adding a whole lot to the game and would like to, at the very least, change how they function. Currently players are still given the illusion that OFs have a say about their NPC faction's direction, when I think in reality all players should have an equal chance to write a good story development request about any faction, and what faction they are part of should not matter. Of course, this relies on the Story team to be able to properly vet these requests.
Like I said at the end of my previous post, I do think region DMs that have an interesting story (or two) to tell are an idea we should consider. This might provide players who can't live without some major e-power a place to try and influence a part of the story. Plus it's just kind of cool in general, assuming it's executed at least half as well as Treewyrm's stuff.
RE: Story Railroading. - Groshyr - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 04:44 PM)Miaou Wrote:(02-07-2022, 04:31 PM)Saronsen Wrote: Why allow player governments to exist, or official factions to exist, if not to allow for player agency?
Reminder that "player house governments" don't actually hold any power and only really came from official factions banding together and using their combined faction rights to help dictate and regulate more standardized things like pobs and updating house laws.
At no point we're they supposed to play the government as a whole, just the smaller bureaucratic departments. Players just assume and the staff didn't correct. But of a whoopsies on all sides.
As for official factions, you exist to showcase what the faction is about and help guide players to act in line with the faction, such is why some faction rights exist to assist in keeping indies in line so we don't have KNF ships making friends with blood dragons and skipping down the lanes.
You don't control your npc faction. You can suggest direction for it like anyone else and perhaps staff should consider the 1ic's suggestions a bit more. However they don't have to accept your suggestions and I don't blame any staff from ignoring often times bad player suggestions.
Imagine being wrong. Imagine dragons. Imagine radioactive.
I'm sorry but I think you are partially wrong: perhaps it was so in the past, perhaps it is so in Liberty still, but as far as I know, Rheinland allowed all active local factions to be part of it (unless my information is outdated) and the Gallic Government has both official and unofficial factions, including qualsi-legal one. Yes, the goal is to combine effort to regulate region and in theory provide local player-driven story, however we all are busy people and can't put all our time for this game and community.
Official or unofficial, but yet player faction has to represent a branch of their official faction, not a whole NPC faction. You don't own it, you are still subordinary of story, but story has to listen and value your opinion, if you can deliver it as adequate adult person. If you are incapable to do it - then don't expect anyone listen to you. Moreover, as official faction your responsibility is to teach other who comes to play same NPC faction as you how to play this faction, not to wave your pixel dong, telling about how cool you are.
RE: Story Railroading. - Creutzfeuer - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 03:52 PM)Haste Wrote: I think @Treewyrm is currently doing a good job of it with his Nomad (not-so-)mini-arc. Players who get involved with it are free to shape the story and take it in all sorts of directions, though the beginning and the end of it are (as far as I know) mostly set in stone.
So essentially the involved players are there to provide flavour to a "story" without the chance of influencing the outcome - correct?
And you deem this a good thing? Do the involved Nomad-players know about this?
This is RP-wise an inherently flawed concept, nothing to be lauded, sinister even...
RE: Story Railroading. - Miaou - 02-07-2022
(02-07-2022, 04:49 PM)Groshyr Wrote: I'm sorry but I think you are partially wrong: perhaps it was so in the past, perhaps it is so in Liberty still, but as far as I know, Rheinland allowed all active local factions to be part of it (unless my information is outdated) and the Gallic Government has both official and unofficial factions, including qualsi-legal one. Yes, the goal is to combine effort to regulate region and in theory provide local player-driven story, however we all are busy people and can't put all our time for this game and community.
Why that changed I've no idea. I don't think it's at all a good idea for players to play prominent characters in government or factions in general. It likely just hasn't been regulated since we lost most of our active admins after like, two coups. Really should be limited again.