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+---- Thread: Gunboats (/showthread.php?tid=21165)
Gunboats - Inconcessus - 05-30-2009
' Wrote:That's just how it works. The biggest ships die first in group fights. Battleships go down before gunboats. Does that make them cannonfodder? Light fighters tend to survive right until the end. Does this make them tanks?
Sorry, but I must disagree. In fleet battles I have been in they were the first ones to die amongst the capships. They pose a considarable threath to bombers and other capships can easily assist with a few shots to take it down as well. Once they are down the bombers shrug off fighters easily and proceed to blow up the bigger ships.
Gunboats - globalplayer-svk - 05-30-2009
i know that it is strange, but i must completely agree with Dab about this.
(and you know how big gb whore i am:))
what is for me most strange about gunboats vs capital ships is that for example two bounty hutners gunships have better chance to destroy heavy battleship as two corsair gunboats that are designed as heavy, anticapital gunboat.
and that is paradox i think. light gunship designed to counter fighters/bombrs, is better choice against very heavy opponent as ship that was designated for it. (with primary guns you are not able to hit bh gunship when it is more as 400m from you, when the pilot know how to fly it)
gunboats in general are maked as support against smaller ships, so for what they need weapons with 1500m range? smaller ships can dodge itvery easy on that distance.
Gunboats - Markam - 05-30-2009
Everyones experience agaisnt gunboats varies, you can make the most insane ship in the mod, and give it to a total tit, and it usually dies easily, bit like the chimaera, against a weak pilot you'll clean up no problem, but give it to an ace and you'll be slitting your wrists.
Does that make it right? not sure, two noob gunboats are no problem to most people, but two gunboats with people who know what they're doing, and you'll kill cruisers (-kusari, not a cruiser to balance against) and BS, big ones especially.
I think once people learn how to fly, and the BR+pulse trend kicks in, this arguement will become quite strong, those guns tend to be jack of all trades unfortunately, pretty much like the SN 'It wasnt mean to shoot fighters.. honest.'
I dont use gunboats, I dont really use big caps much (though I have them, just dont fight anything..), like to think im not biased on this one.
Gunboats - Jinx - 05-30-2009
lets look at it from previous calls for nerfs - and compare.
gunboat missile boats. - they had a great advantage ... and a great disadvantage. - they were able to ruins a fighters life, but their own life could easily be ruined by another warship. - a good balance. - but there was one single argument that was valid in the whole discussion. - one faction was bound to fly only fighters due to the rules.
so in that case - missile boats "might" or might not have been unfair beyond RP ( means, fairness over roleplay )
lets look at razor / pulse gunboats. - its just as missile gunboats - a pure specialization. the difference is that the only single argument against such a specialization is viod that time. - everyone, especially fighters - can easily defend against it. - yes.... it is possible to kill fighters with razors, but no one can really claim that its a "no skill" weapon or that razors can be "spammed by noobs until they hit".
these ships are efficient against larger ships by giving up their power against smaller ships.
a gunboat with all razors is a cruisers nightmare, no doubt. BUT - haven t i heard so many of you guys totally and utterly agreeing with the very silly term "GET ESCORTS"? - two razor gunboats against a cruiser - if the cruiser happens to have proper escorts is a fair game.
a cruiser is only slightly slower than a gunboat - but much more powerful in terms of damage output. a single gunboat will most probably not destroy a single cruiser. - two gunboats - now that is outnumbering.
two VHF can destroy a gunboat
two bombers can destroy a battleship
two gunboats can destroy a destroyer
two light fighters can destroy a VHF
its like a trend ...
also keep in mind that if that is about gunboats in general - it would be really neat to take down all those that agree "now" and see how they reacted ... IF ... we nerft the gunboats. - nerfs are always appreciated as long as they don t affect oneself. ( look at the trading discussion - so many players were so glad to get rid of "those nasty powertraders" that they forgot that they, too - would be affected by the more challenging trading.... the result was a discussion spanning over dozens of pages )
what will certainly NOT happen is a selective nerf. like ... nerf those nasty little BHG gunships but keep our own the anti-cap abilities... will NOT happen. two corsair gunboats fail to do what two BHG gunships can do when its anti-cap? - i really doubt it.
edit: and i d like to add in - we had the close beta running for a year. - really enough time to address such a major concern. and we had countless gunboats and cap sparring going
Gunboats - mjolnir - 05-30-2009
1 Cruiser has much better chance vs 2 anti-cap GBs (he'll mostly win) than 1 BS yes.
And guess what:
I think it's perfectly fine
Cruisers > GBs. Bombers > anti-cap gbs.
The GBs need at least 2-3 BRs or maybe even 1-2 pulses on top (depends on the BS loadout) to kill it, 2 bombers will do the same thing faster.
The "allround" GBs which use full Razors and infernos against fighters... well they are great if you are lucky or fight noobs. Against equally skilled pilots their shortcomings quickly show up. It's a bit like taking 2 bombers with full shieldbusters and SN to fight fighters. Either you get the SN hits and win, or you don't ever hurt them. It's also same "unbalance" yes bomber like this can fight fighters as can GB like that. But is it really that effective?
Gunboats - Panzer - 05-30-2009
I think it's fine too. Although maybe a 200m range upgd o Solaris and regulars would do?
Gunboats - Lutz - 05-30-2009
I think what Jinx said is absolutly right here. The Gbs are fine as they are now. And why shouldnt a group of Gbs kill a BS?
Bigger ships are always a good target and now our Battleships are really good targets if you are a skilled pilot.
Gunboats - zeinstruktor - 05-30-2009
So, if GBs need to use a full pulse/razor loadout to be able to kill caps, why not let them?
They won't be able to kill fighters and bombers, assuming they can dodge. Razoring a bomber and having 3 razors hit isn't that easy. It takes 2 razors to kill a fighter, and 3 for a bomber. I honestly don't see the problem here, as this was the EXACT same argument that was brought to me in my bomber nerf thread. If the fighters/bombers know how to dodge and not joust the full pulse/razor GB, the GB will no longer be able to touch them.
GBs are not the jack of all trades, not even close.
Gunboats - X-Lancer - 05-30-2009
the best way to against multiply GBs..spam your Cruiser/Battleship missiles..but that wont last long...since your powerplant wont able to handle that..so it's not an option..
Gunboats - X-Lancer - 05-30-2009
' Wrote:Nothing personal, Dab, but this thread just makes me want to groan.
Imho, gbs are nothing but cannon fodder in this current mod. Really. They usually are the first to blow up. If they are tweeked (i.e. nerfed) any further, they'll be nothing more than glorified SHFs. Same goes for the weapons.
How on earth does a BS get bested by two gbs? When I flew a BS, I used BRs to zap gunboats. Two BRs will ruin a gunboat pilot's day.
Gunboats are not created equal. Some are more attuned to AA tasks. Others are heavy hitters against other capships. If the community decides that all gbs should concentrate on killing fighters and bombers, gb agility needs to be increased considerably - less on some models, more on others.
Concerning the gb BR and Pulse turrets - they seem to be analogous to cruiser/BS mortars and pulse turrets. Thus the longer range compared to the normal gb turrets.
And frankly, I don't think gbs are spammed - at least not in a painfully obvious manner.
try hit a BHG GS with your dual BR and see in what range you can do that to a non-flying straight BHG GS