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+--- Thread: Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs (/showthread.php?tid=22635)
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Dab - 07-01-2009
' Wrote:Personally I think the Zoner Guard ID is killing roleplay. If anything, I'd suggest a cargo reduction (followed in line with the zoner whale). I mean, Interspace, IND, independent trader, Junker IDs all got cargosize nerfs expressly because of the trading freedom they have, and they ALL have less freedom than zoners.Yes, they did get cargosize nerfs because of the trading freedom.. But Interspace isn't a trading corporation, they are insurance. Junkers are also not solely a trading corporation, and specialize in smuggling. Furthermore, the ships available to the junker are Liners and their best non-liner transport, the Pirate Train, has only 4,300 cargo itself. Zoner's own faction transport is 5,000. Furthermore, trading is all they do. So to lower the cargo size would be to lower the only thing it exists for. IC, Junkers, etc have alternative things to do.. Zoners have trading and politics. That's it. Restriction is good, but go too far and it'll only kill off the faction completely. That is something I want to avoid, as it won't help anything..
This isn't a bad proposal, but I think it might be a pain to actually implement. I mean, they could still go and do it when no one was watching (this is how they land cardamine on manhattan anyway, right?), and it involves a lot of print screening, sanction reporting, etc etc. I don't want everyone to have to be on their toes all the time, constantly suspecting all zoners of breaking the rules. Plus I mean, a lot of these guys, do they even read the ID? You could change it and they wouldn't even know. But if the zoner whale's cargospace dropped, they'd just have to take it in their stride.
Also, I don't think it'll be difficult to implement at all. ID rules are generally followed already. And it isn't that difficult to screenshot someone's ID and them docking a station (or undocking, which would be even easier to prove) and report it. Most people will probably just switch immediately. There are less rule breakers than some people seem to think. Plenty break the small rules, but the major ones they don't. The few who do still try to trade like this will get caught pretty quickly.. Besides, the reason to have the Zoner Guard ID is that it allows 5,000 cargo and an unlimited ZoI and docking ability.. If they can't even be SEEN docking a station, that makes it more restrictive than any other ID out there. What if they flew for an hour to their destination that they aren't supposed to be able to land on, and there are four players sitting right outside? He either has to wait till they leave or go elsewhere. Either way he loses a ton of his profit, and suddenly he'll start thinking about an alternative ID to use that allows his route and his ship without having to go through the trouble of not getting caught breaking a rule.
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Malaclypse 666 - 07-02-2009
Ahh.. made it!
I swear I tried to get here four times already today.. ah well.. Five's the charm, eh?
Does anyone find it odd that mostbunall Zoners who've responded seem to agree with this proposal?
Does anyone wonder why a group of players known for their love of freedom and independence would wish to place yet more restrictions on themselves?
Fooled ya! You thought i was about to whiss all over the idea, didn' ya?
I just wanted to do some 'splainin', Luci, by answering my own questions.
Change has made the Zoner life more "attractive". It's easier to get a Zoner or Zoner Guard rep and ID now. We have the blessing of that delightful new un-bulgey Whale, courtesy of our beloved Jinx; as well as the marvelous "reworks" of our Juggy, Aquilon, and Corvo.
And, let's face it. Zoners are starting to "cook". We do stuff.. We have new bases. We have new opportunities for roleplay... some "gifted" to us, some shoved in our faces, and some hard-fought for.
But.. Those blessings also carry a curse. A rapid influx of folk into a "loose" affiliation of "loose" Zoners with "loose" restrictions.
And now it seems, (Eris forgive me), that even we Zoners are saying "too much looseness.. too much 'Slack'.."
Too many folk too "mentor".. too many folk to get us in hot water over roleplay that may seem "Zonerish" to them, but actually hampers what Zoners should be striving for.
So we're saying "Yes.. restrict us." Sombunall of us will suffer.. ZTC and OSI may have to find other routes and markets for organisms. ZTC's new shiney proposal stresses their members becoming "Elite" Zoner Guards.. which may hamper their activities under these proposed ID changes.
But in the end.. CoZ members, Faction folk, we all agree that there are certain things that should be expected of Zoners.
Our capital vessels should be "mysterious".. un-countable and "un-seen", especially in House space. The proposed changes will ensure that.
Our lovely Zoner Whales should be exclusive.. as to ownership, as to purpose, and as to the routes they ply and the bases they "serve". The proposed changes will help to ensure that as well.
We as Zoners have a wealth of new players, new opportunities, and new "challenges". This change in the Guard ID, as pointed out, will serve somewhat to "share" that wealth with other corporate Factions, by making the "Zoner Way" less attractive to sombunall, while making House trading factions more attractive to sombunall.
We as Zoners will gain by these changes in a number of ways, of course. The new ID restrictions would actually help us to define and "hone" our roleplay. it will force us to adapt, just as Zoners have had to do since they first began to leave the Houses for the "Border" Worlds. This is actualy a blessing in disguise.
It will also serve to cut down on the number of reports we (The CoZ, the SHIZL, the Factions) will have to deal with concerning misbehavior and "oorp" actions. We will better know what is expected of us to truly roleplay Zoners.
I commend Dab on suggesting the changes, on accepting feedback from the Zoner Community, and on the excellent presentation.
For myself, I've voted a resounding "Yes", without changes or reservation. In the end, I feel the proposed Guard ID changes will benefit the Zoners more than it will hurt them; and benefit the Discovery Community as well, by putting the ol' Chao back in balance regarding the current surplus of Guard-tagged ZBTs running about the Sector, often where they shouldn't be by any reasonable standard of Zoner philosophy.
I've caucaused the TAZ, and can say with reasonable certainty that "we" support this proposal as an Official faction as well.
Pair o' digms,
Mal
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - n00bl3t - 07-02-2009
I dislike this and I do not support it. I think I already said that in the Skype chat. Honestly, if you feel this is the way Zoner RP should be feel free to exercise it yourself without forcing it on others.
Anyway, in an attempt to try and salvage some freedom, I would alternatively propose that only Zoner Whales be restricted to these routes.
Out of curiousity, why are Junker bases disallowed?
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Dab - 07-02-2009
' Wrote:I dislike this and I do not support it. I think I already said that in the Skype chat. Honestly, if you feel this is the way Zoner RP should be feel free to exercise it yourself without forcing it on others.I don't expect everyone to like these changes. ZTC and OSI have already stated this will hurt them, but they will adapt to it. However, don't feel that I'm trying to 'force' my view of the Zoners on anyone else by doing this. I'm taking the current roleplay established by in-game rumors and news items concerning the Zoners and using them to find a solution to our current problem. This goes far beyond the Zoners, it affects just about every other semi- to full-trading faction in the mod. Sometimes we must make sacrifices in order to make things better for others who were not so fortunate as to receive such a 'loose' restriction on its activities.
Anyway, in an attempt to try and salvage some freedom, I would alternatively propose that only Zoner Whales be restricted to these routes.
And making routes restricted from Zoner Whales will have the same result of reducing the Whale's cargo.. The people abusing the ID will just switch to another 5k transport, like the Adv. Train and Heavy Tanker. Both already heavily used by Zoner Guard ID'd powertraders.
If you can find another solution to this problem that works, I'd be glad to hear it.
' Wrote:Out of curiousity, why are Junker bases disallowed?
Dab Wrote:The exceptions above are for the Guard ID because they are places/commodities that Zoners would spend time trading to/from/with in-RP. I would add the Junkers as an exception, but then people would continue to trade contraband nonstop into the houses from Malta/Crete/Others as the Junker stations buy them for almost as much as the lawful stations.
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Quorg - 07-02-2009
Like most ideas that clamp down on the possibilities for players, this sits very, very poorly with me.
I have never played a Zoner trader. However, there is no legitimate RP reason to bar large transports owned by Zoner Guard ID'd and IFF'd ships from trading within House space. None whatsoever. Now of course, there can be in-RP consequences if a Zoner chooses to break House laws. Fine. But this whole idea that there's "too much freedom" simply has no basis in canon.
And your reasoning not to allow Zoners to land on Junker bases? err.... because it's too profitable? Really?
Since when was profitability a reason to ban something? There's a reason Junker bases pay well for commodities. To cut off all Zoner trade to bases like Trafalgar and Rochester simply because "they pay almost as much" really doesn't make any sense.
You make it harder to make a buck, and then wonder why people try to find fast ways to trade.
Imposing completely OORP restrictions on factions is not going to solve anybody's powertrading problem.
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Ark - 07-02-2009
I understand the reasons behind the proposed restrictions... very well. I almost agree with them.
-but I can't help but feel like I'm tired of being chased around. First they capped my Freelancer, so I went Zoner. Then they capped my zoner, so I went Guard. It's not like I don't RP. It's not like I ever used the diamond-niobium route. It's not like I don't carry supplies to FP 11. It's not like I don't stop and talk with whatever pirate asks. It's not like I don't have an RP for the ship (it was going to become a researcher vessel in time but that one was pre-empted outright.)
I've been a good little trader the whole time and I'm a little tired of being punished for it. If I powertraded, I'd be done trading already. And no- it's not like I want a battleship. I can afford one already. I don't fly anything larger than a gunship.
A little tired of it...
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Malaclypse 666 - 07-02-2009
Quote:Imposing completely OORP restrictions on factions is not going to solve anybody's powertrading problem.
Google the "Curse of Isness", sir. I humbly submit that your response "seems" to indicate that you "appear" to consider yourself an authority on what "is" canon, and what "is" out-of-canon roleplay.
I, on the gripping hand "believe", that my interpretation of this "completely OORP" proposal may actually approximate what is "perceived to be" canon RP.
All things seem to suffer from differences in perception, sir.
Perhaps we can agree to experience different subjective realities in this case.
Mal
Edit: @Ark.
Sir, you strike me as a Saint among the community, and I mean that. You have expressed very well the growing pains involved with these processes.
I would ask you one question to reflect on: Even though this seems like just one more erosion of your freedoms, (and I'm the one who annoyingly qoutes "Celine's Laws" at the drop of a hat..), would these changes have severely afffected your ability to roleplay as a Zoner, or to have those RP experiences that I sincerely believe you did have?
@n00bl3t: You may have stated your reasons on Skype, but I am truly curious as to why you are so adamant?
Mal
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Ark - 07-02-2009
I understand the reasons why, so it is difficult to contradict.
My only question is; when will it end?
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Doc Holliday - 07-02-2009
Very good presentation, Dab, and I do agree with much of what you said. I do have the same concern as Ark does and that is "where will it end?" Say these changes go into effect and people adapt as I know they will. There is always going to be someone, somewhere that feels that the Zoner has too much freedom and again want to curtail it. It's kind of like the government and taxes, "when will they stop raising them?"
I do agree that Zoner cap ships shouldn't be in House space. Only once have I flown a Fearless through Liberty to address a troublemaker at FP2. I got permission to pass and purposely altered my flight plan to avoid major population areas. A Juggy or Aquilon wouldn't make a lot of sense and as previously mentioned, should be ships of mystery.
Trading? Everyone but me seems to want a whale. Seems a lot of folks are getting busted for buying it without proper ID. As for trading in houses themselves, there are some things that we can only get in House space to bring to Zoner installations. Luxury consumer goods comes to mind at Manahattan that sell well on Gran Canaria or Engine components from New Berlin or Honshu. Or, certain Zoner items sell well in House space like Iridium at Southborough Station in Newcastle, ships being allowed to make those runs are the Borderworlds DL transport. The Whale should be restricted to the Borderworlds.
Good work, Dab. Not much argument from me.
Zoner/Zoner Guard IDs - Cyberanson - 07-02-2009
Dab, I completely agree with your suggestion. The spam of Zoner Guard tagged powertraders ruins the level of RP massively.
Go for it.
//edit....
Well, I thought about this for some time now and would like to add something.
As some of you might know I am very active in Rheinland. Due to some server rules, we can not stop the powertraders right when we see them. The whole thing with the engagement notice and so on does make sense to me, but it would really help to allow house militaries and police forces to track this smugglers down immediately.
I mean... it is not the Zoner way to smuggle slaves through restricted space or haul dangerous stuff like Cardamine and artifacts right in fron of our eyes. Rules force us to scan them first and give an engagement notice afterwards. Until this happens, most of this powertraders are far outside of our CD range and mostly they escape. What we would need is some rule which allows the house authorities to engage this smugglers on sight. They know what they are doing and have to face the consqeuences in RP.
That's another problem for me: when I stop one of them and give a try on a RP approach I normally get some gibberish... that's sad.