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]bd[ lore revision (!) - Markus_Janus - 12-12-2011

' Wrote:As far as I'm concerned, Dragons are the "best guys around" in kusari, I mean, from gameplay standpoint, we won't increase kusari playerbase with the anti-gaijin kusari vs rest of the sirius, no matter the occupation.

Hogosha? Pirates foreigners.
AFA? Pirates foreigners.
KNF/KSP? Ignores the above.
GC/BD? Pirates because they can.

Now tell me one reason for foreigners to enter kusari, right now it's samura/kishiro who exports and imports majority of commodities in kusari.

Also, I can't really tell what is the stance of BD towards Bretonia/BAF in general, leave them be, "keel the gaijin", or keep them safe, so they kick KNF backs?

For the record, I never played with kusari but as a bretonian player i had more than one encounter with various kusari factions.

Oh, and during SP, I couldn't find a slightest trace of anti-gaijin feeling going toward Trent, everyone was polite, nice, standard "honourable samurai" stuff.

Feel free to comment.

You bring up some very good points there about the racism issue, this has been taken too far by the Kusari player base and does need to be wound back quite a bit.
Kusari as a whole is about nationalism not racism.
And yes I agree that as a foreigner, the way things are now ingame, BD are one of the better people to bump into.
Hogosha have become very Farmers Alliance like in their motivation but hopefully the ID split between them will help next update.

But I must say, that there is a general feeling of keeping foreign powers out of Kusari, but that would not extend to tourists.
Of course how many of us play just civilian tourists in game.
Saying this of course it would still be seen as racism by others.

The way it should be.
Farmers attack foreign shipping.
Hogosha pirate everything for profit in a low key manner.
GC pirate everything for supplies/profit.
BD pirate anything that support the current regime.
KSP/KNF arrest or kill anything dumb enough to get caught while ignoring the Hogosha syndicate as a whole due to lack of evidence on the individuals.

]bd[ lore revision (!) - Maelstrom - 12-12-2011

I don't really think the sexism is all that important a part of the roleplay. Women of the culture could and did wield power and could and did fight battles. Not as often as men, but it was not some mystical rare thing either.

Also, there was upward mobility, though mostly through success in war. A farmer who picked up a sword and fought could become more than a farmer if he could distinguish himself. Admittedly, this didn't happen often, but it did happen. It's how most noble families came to be and how many samurai attained the rank.

I guess I can't rebut the gaijin aspect, but it's important to note that gaijin didn't just mean another race. Other clans could be and were considered gaijin as well. It should probably also be noted that a gaijin could attain rank through service to the clan, and eventually become part of the clan. Heirs of the family were not necesarily heirs of the family if you get my meaning. They were a bit more flexible in that regard than many might think.

Up to you if you want to apply any of this to your Shogunate, though.

]bd[ lore revision (!) - Dane Summers - 12-12-2011

' Wrote:well you said it yourself, there is a large difference between someone with a sword and a Samurai.
Any man woman or child can pick up a weapon and as soon as they swing it, they become a warrior for as long as they shall live or win the fight.
This does not have much to do with the samurai caste though, which is more to the point of this discussion than whether someone can shoot you or not.

I was making a comment as to the liberal difference between the Meiji period, and the pre-tokugawa bakufu period - in which the social hierarchy was much more restrictive. In the case of later years, while Samurai were still nobility, the peasantry was not out to death for having weapons. In fact, during the meiji period, the term "Ronin" came to mean any person with a military profession, who did not have a lord. In a good example of this, a famous historical figure, Kondo Isami, was born a farmer, was then adopted by a sword school owner, and later led a group of Ronin who are honored to this day in Japan as heroes of the Meiji Restoration. His best friend, Hjikata Toshizo, was also a farmer, and came to epitomize the "Samurai Code" within this group - he taught himself how to wield a sword, before being admitted into the sword school that Kondo Isami taught at.

In modern Kusari, the concept of class structure should be even more liberal - the idea that there is "nobility" versus "peasantry" is an outdated concept, that is, by modern standards, barbaric. In modern Kusari, what defines yours ability to rise, is skill, dedication...

...and a penis.

' Wrote:Again the title of Emperor or Empress does not have any links to the Samurai caste and although I agree that as long as a woman, of the imperial line, is strong enough she will be Empress, it is not linked to women being a part of the Samurai caste.

Considering that the Emperor owns the land - the same land the Samurai control and tax for the emperor, i would say that, the Emperor is not Samurai - the whole purpose of Samurai is to serve the Emperor.
which means that if a woman can become Emperor, the idea that a woman is unworthy to be Samurai doesnt make any sense.

But then, you have to ask...have there been any woman emperors in Kusari?

' Wrote:Is it impossible for women to be Samurai, no I don't think so, hell this is just a space game and if that is what you want, I am fine with it.
But again unless citation is provided that the sexism issue was brought about by Samura backed government, we must follow logic that it was their beforehand hence followed by the Blood Dragons.

The term "Samurai" is a Caste in the hierarchy, so that means the wife of a Cavalry Officer is also a Samurai, the same as the Daimyo's bookkeeper is also a Samurai. In essence, the term is synonymous with the "Nobility" of the feudal system. So a girl born to a samurai family is also a samurai - she will undoubtedly be arranged to be married - however, in families of very little esteem, or in families with many daughters, there exists possibilities for a young woman to pick up a weapon and do other things.

In the case of Kusari, apparently girls couldnt even attend school to learn how to fly ships, nor hold occupations in either the primary naval forces, or any position of government, especially in any position among Samura. They are described, in GC lore, as "the long suffering women of kusari"
(i find it funny that one of the prominent spokes people for the Kusari Navy is a woman...)


]bd[ lore revision (!) - Markus_Janus - 12-12-2011

The idea of women in Kusari is very convoluted.
If we look at the NPCs in bars we see female members of both the KSP and KNF so I would not say they can not hold a position in this climate, more that there is a glass ceiling preventing women from holding a fair percentage of positions.
When it comes to Players, well I like the idea of some women getting up there, as you said, we have a women that is very high within the KNF, there is also one that is very high within Samura.
The funny thing about lore is that we like to use it to prove our points on numerous occasions while some of it in the form of rumors can be very bad at this.
I guess you can still follow the GC rumor and have women as the long suffering of Kusari while you have other women like the one in Samura that will tell you it is their own fault for playing victims to men.

Then again this could just be like western culture of just 20 years ago.

]bd[ lore revision (!) - Death.RunningVerminator - 12-12-2011

Well, you'll receive no wall-of-text from me. I agree with the changes you wish to make. Ryuumel, you've got a good crew and you yourself have a lot of experience and definitively know what you're doing. Trust your instincts and do what you think is best for the faction. I have faith in you pal.:)And hopefully come 4.86 i will apply for the bd again. I miss you guys so much ):

Oh and I agree strongly with this:
' Wrote:I'd say have the BD work towards restoring a shogunate. It doesn't have to be an insular and gender biased shogunate, but the return to a feudal system as a legitamate government seems to fit them.

You could say that over the 500 years of fighting some women and foreigners, though few in number, have attained samurai status. That would allow women to participate in the shogunate and would account for the increased gaijin presence.

As for who runs it, make it a real shogunate. Establish feudal loyalties by having duels among the bd. The winners take the oath of the losers and the losers retinue. Then the final three or four winners can appoint strategists and officers from within thier retinues. If you need to unruffle some feathers you can appoint a fictional warrior as the final leader. Or you can have the last three or four warriors battle it out and then have them swear oath to the final winner. The final winner would be the one to ascend to the throne of the shogunate if the bd ever win. If you want to keep the current officers just script out the battles. I'd still have the actuall duels, just script it so the officers win. Then to replace an officer who wants to leave, script a battle for him/her to lose.


]bd[ lore revision (!) - Dab - 12-12-2011


' Wrote:from the same thing about roppongi, shogunate were allowing foreigners to trade in kusari, but not to settle there. Later something changed and they allowed:D
' Wrote:Citation Needed
Especially about the "something changed and they allowed" part. Deshima and Roppongi are the only non-Kusari station in Kusari. In fact, Deshima is more of a Kusari-run station made for foreigners to use, in order to stop them from settling in Kusari.

' Wrote:Ok well first let me state that the Roppongi station info card is screwed up.
According to vanilla lore Roppongi was not built in New Tokyo orbit until after the end of the 80 year war.
The Roppongi info card we have now is not Vanilla and contradicts with Vanilla lore, welcome to discovery.
' Wrote:Citation Needed
The dates were incorrect, but they were both from vanilla infocards. This wasn't something done by the dev team, but by DA. The dev team updated the infocard, yes, but did not adjust any of the dates given in it. That contradiction is fixed in .86 IIRC. Either way, the infocards are the game's lore, and you're bound to them. So what the infocard says, is what is. You can't just decide "well, we don't like what it said, so we won't go by it."

' Wrote:As it was the Samura backed government that allowed it to happen not the old Shogunate.
' Wrote:Citation Needed

' Wrote:As such I believe that the Blood Dragons would be at least as bad as the Samura backed government, even more so
' Wrote:Citation Needed

' Wrote:
  • Dragons were as bad as the current regime if not more so with foreigners.
' Wrote:Citation Needed

' Wrote:
  • Dragons were every bit against equal rights as the current regime, I believe if they could go back they would.
' Wrote:Citation Needed

' Wrote:
  • <strike>I actually love the dragons myself as</strike> they are the most backwards group I can think of in Sirius.
' Wrote:Citation Needed


]bd[ lore revision (!) - Markus_Janus - 12-12-2011

' Wrote:Especially about the "something changed and they allowed" part. Deshima and Roppongi are the only non-Kusari station in Kusari. In fact, Deshima is more of a Kusari-run station made for foreigners to use, in order to stop them from settling in Kusari.



The dates were incorrect, but they were both from vanilla infocards. This wasn't something done by the dev team, but by DA. The dev team updated the infocard, yes, but did not adjust any of the dates given in it. That contradiction is fixed in .86 IIRC. Either way, the infocards are the game's lore, and you're bound to them. So what the infocard says, is what is. You can't just decide "well, we don't like what it said, so we won't go by it."

I have never said I will not go with it, just that it is screwed up.

Ok just let me ask a question here.
The only info I can find so far on the subject are these tidbits.
Two Rumors from Roppongi.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9750/free...11073106054.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8715/free...11073106050.jpg

Original info card for Roppongi.
Quote:Name: Roppongi Station
Description: In the early years of the Kusari Empire, foreign immigration was strictly controlled and permanent foreign settlements on New Tokyo were strictly forbidden. While the Kusari Shogunate was unwilling to bend these rules, it still accommodated foreign business interests by constructing Roppongi Station in orbit. Since that time, Roppongi has largely become home to elite expatriates from New York and New London who have long-term business to conduct in the system. The station is also a popular destination for New Tokyo youths wishing to sample its entertainment concourses. Interspace Commerce (IC) maintains an office on board to oversee its interests in the system.

So ok we have three sets of info that does not state any year lower than 710 AS.

Now we have the Disco Info card.
Quote:In the early years of the Kusari Empire, foreign immigration was strictly controlled and permanent foreign settlements on New Tokyo were strictly forbidden. While the Kusari Shogunate was unwilling to bend these rules, it still accommodated foreign business interests by allowing Interspace Commerce to construct Roppongi Station in 318 A.S. Despite the restrictions placed on permanent residencies elsewhere in Kusari, and the outrage expressed by conservative Kusari politicians at the Hideyoshi controlled Shogunate for allowing foreigners into the New Tokyo system, Roppongi Station's business flourished, with many corporations opening offices onboard.

When the Hideyoshi Emperor was deposed in 321 A.S., Roppongi's future was plunged into doubt. Thankfully, even the conservatives had recognised the financial benefits of leaving it alone, and in any case they had no desire at the time to upset Interspace Commerce, which at that time owned the rights to all the jump gates and trade lanes within Kusari. The conservatives were still reluctant to have too many foreigners in New Tokyo, however, and Deshima Station in Shikoku was eventually constructed in 350 A.S. with the aim of reducing the "outsider" population.

The Kusari-Rheinland embargo in 521 A.S. resulted in both those Houses nationalising their trade lanes and jump gates, causing Interspace Commerce to lose countless billions of credits almost overnight, as Kusari and Rheinland wiped away their debts to the Liberty corporation. Thoroughly angry with their losses, and the paltry two hundred years worth of tolls they extracted in exchange for their losses, Interspace began covertly funding independent pirates to raid Kusari shipping. After the formation of the Golden Chrysanthemum terrorist organisation, it is widely believed that Interspace has been funding them, just as they later began funding the Red Hessian pirates, and that the pirates in return sell stolen goods cheaply to Interspace. It is likely that these practices continue to this day, although Interspace's involvement has never been substantiated, and always sues any such allegations as "slander".

So can you inform me where the date 318 comes from if not the Devs?
Just curious.

Now onto the citations needed.
Three of them are clearly labelled as opinions and as such to ask for citations on opinions seem a little silly.

I have explained how it was a Samura backed government that allowed IC into Kusari not a Dragon backed Shogunate, unless of course we ignore two bits of ingame lore and change a third to better suit even though it contradicts the two original citations. (This stands until I see Vanilla mention of Roppongi mentioning 318AS.)

I have demonstrated that the culture exists at present time and have found no evidence of this culture being introduced by a Samura backed government. (Still waiting on citation of conflicting theory)
According to logic, if it is there now and was not introduced by current government, it must of been there before current government.
And again I ask for any evidence to dispute this.


To Fran, you know as leader of Blood Dragon faction, you have my support which ever way you choose to go.
It is my opinion that the best idea put forward in this thread so far would be this one.
' Wrote:I'd say have the BD work towards restoring a shogunate. It doesn't have to be an insular and gender biased shogunate, but the return to a feudal system as a legitamate government seems to fit them.

You could say that over the 500 years of fighting some women and foreigners, though few in number, have attained samurai status. That would allow women to participate in the shogunate and would account for the increased gaijin presence.

As for who runs it, make it a real shogunate. Establish feudal loyalties by having duels among the bd. The winners take the oath of the losers and the losers retinue. Then the final three or four winners can appoint strategists and officers from within thier retinues. If you need to unruffle some feathers you can appoint a fictional warrior as the final leader. Or you can have the last three or four warriors battle it out and then have them swear oath to the final winner. The final winner would be the one to ascend to the throne of the shogunate if the bd ever win. If you want to keep the current officers just script out the battles. I'd still have the actuall duels, just script it so the officers win. Then to replace an officer who wants to leave, script a battle for him/her to lose.

As always I will continue to play my Dragon as I always have, making sure I am arrogant enough while still not standing in the way of the command's decisions.
You have his loyalty, just not always his obedience.


]bd[ lore revision (!) - Dane Summers - 12-12-2011

[Image: 1303501328894.png]


]bd[ lore revision (!) - McNeo - 12-12-2011

Instead of arguing that the Samura backed element were liberal, I'd say that it was the Hideyoshi Shogunate that was becoming liberal. Samura used this to drum up support that they needed from the conservative quarters of Kusari society, and performed a coup.

This means that automatically, the Dragons have two initial characteristics right after that coup:

1. A grudge against conservatism and therefore
2. A preference of liberalism and tolerance

It's up to the Dragons now to decide what direction that they went in since then. I'd suggest that the Dragons would prefer something like Japan now, with a fairly traditional society but contemporary (globalised) economics. Kusari right now looks like Japan before Americanisation, which emphasises traditional society and traditional (isolationist) economics. It wouldn't make sense if lawful Kusari and Dragons had exactly the same outlook, as that would eliminate most of the reason for Dragons continuing to exist.

But right now, Dragons are much less concerned about the economics of their situation, as they are still working towards gaining control and influence in Kusari. It's up to them whether they think that they can do it themselves or if they need the help of other entities. However, when you work with other people, you often concede power; the balance is hard to find.

Markus: In those two rumours you provided, the first says that IC had no physical presence in Kusari except for the trade lanes before Roppongi, but the second says that they had offices on New Tokyo before the construction of Roppongi.

A lot of FL lore doesn't make sense, but I too was under the impression that Roppongi wasn't a 500 year old station.

]bd[ lore revision (!) - Rodent - 12-12-2011

So, Kusari could be described as a closed, traditional society, governed by local megacorporations with the emperor's powers considerably reduced in wake of corporate pressure. Said megacorps work very hard to hold their monopoly in kusari. Such near absolute power of course results in a wide streak of corruption, oppression, and discrimination against foreigners.

So, if the Blood dragons are to be an effective antidote for the current regimen, they'd mostly be looking to break the power of the kusari kiretsu. Enact anti-monopoly laws, open up the current market a little more, looking to contain the corporations into something more manageable.

So now, as Ryummel told me, there could be two ways the dragons could achieve this. Either through an absolute monarchy, or a democracy. There could be both schools of thought existent within the organization at the same time.

With the traditonal government and restrictive atmosphere, a significant fragment of the Kusari youth would be attracted towards the promises of a new government and such the Dragons are promising, becoming bastions of liberal policies within it's ranks. And there could be old-timers who just want the absolute monarchy back. In the case of them ever toppling the existing government, I imagine they'd split on the issue.

So in a nutshell, Dragons would basically be a ideology driven force, trying to crack open the hard nut that Kusari has become. They'd be (ironically) the most friendly faction towards foreigners, as well as outside corporations. And their fight is not against the Emperor (who does not have the power he claims to have), but against the strings attached to him.