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+--- Thread: Pirat-Trader rules clarification (/showthread.php?tid=7166)
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Snapp - 03-23-2008
Ok you bring up some valid points. But for clarity's sake.
#1. I never ignore a "Halt" or being Cd'ed. My usual response is "yes? or "what?" or "Hey!". But ill be darned if im just gonna come to a full stop just because the "nasty" pirate says so. I might have other hostiles shooting at me that are MORE of a threat than the guy trying to get 1 mil in a fighter i could probably kill anyways. NPC pirates can "follow along" so can the PC ones, or they can sit there with thier thumb up thier butt for all i care.
#2. Yes it is a boring life, as being a trucker may be, but pirates do it, all day every day. Why? Because it's how we make, and keep, the credits we earn. The difference, i might make 10 mil on a GOOD run, on other less important ones i do just because i like them, im barely making 1.5 mil for 20 minutes of flying, dodging, radiation damage, ect ect. What has the pirate done in this time, most likely if he has a good jumphole spotted out, he's probably pirated 4 or 5 people and made about 20 million, for floating and chatting it up with his buddies. So don't whine when i refuse to just hand over my credits without a fight, a chase, or 5 minutes of negotiations.
#3. Being pirated or better put as TAKING MY MONEY! is a VERY tasteless encounter... Thats the RP of it, don't try to nice it all up, your a cutthroat pirate killer, act like it and deal with the reputation it gives you, or don't pirate. If you want "donations" start a charity.
#4. RP for a trader is to get from point A to point B the quickest possible way. For me this means i only "chat" while im in a tradelane or the autoflight since im busy piloting the rest of the time. Secondly if the guy shoots at me and my shield barely moves, then why on earth would i pay up? The pirate has to BE A THREAT before i will even think about paying. Do i drop my cargo for NPC pirates, not unless it will end with my death. Will i do it for PC one's asking for credits, if i think i have a chance of getting away or fending off the attack, no i won't. Nor will i sacrifice piloting my ship or aim to tell you this so you CAN catch me or finish me off. Sorry don't mean to offend, but the "better" pirates have gotten my creds before. I'm sorry, i fly fast.
*See that big rig in your rear view comming up at 90mhp*
-lead, follow, or get the f out of the way- is my motto, sry if most pirates cant keep up.
#5. As a trader I HAVE NEVER F1'ed on this server. (As a capship i got stuck once and was forced to but thats a diff story. :P)
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Tic - 03-23-2008
' Wrote:Tic you have experienced something that is in gray areas of rules...
As pirate need to make a demand before killing a trader, blindly following the rules you had no right to kill that trader.
However, i too have done the same numerous times...and i will probably did it again...
The thing is that traders always ask from pirates to role play and that they hate 2 mill or die messages...well traders i have news for you....STOP WHEN PIRATE CD YOU....then we can role play with you...none of us will keep you CDed, dodge fire from you and/or NPCs and still make nice small talk with you...
Continuous refusal to communicate or stop even when you clearly cant run from pirate, makes you target in my eyes...
Agreed 100%. Most traders expect pirats to make nice RP lines for tax, while they keep trying to run all the
time.How are we then supposed to write anything but "2 mils or die"?
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Snapp - 03-23-2008
I can't speak for other traders but i don't expect nor want some long story. Do muggers bother with small talk while your getting your wallet out? Do bank robbers ask the lady how her day was while shooting up the place? No and to me it's ooRP to do so, for both pirate AND trader. If your pirating have your demand ready to go, or atleast allready know what your going to say. What most pirates don't seem to understand is that the ONLY advantages a trader has are speed and distance, BOTH of which are lost if we stop or spend valuable seconds typing. The point being, if your a good pirate then you know how to catch traders in a situation where they have no choice, otherwise it's your loss for picking that specific spot or time to try to pirate.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Ors - 03-23-2008
' Wrote:Ok you bring up some valid points. But for clarity's sake.
#1. I never ignore a "Halt" or being Cd'ed. My usual response is "yes? or "what?" or "Hey!". But ill be darned if im just gonna come to a full stop just because the "nasty" pirate says so. I might have other hostiles shooting at me that are MORE of a threat than the guy trying to get 1 mil in a fighter i could probably kill anyways. NPC pirates can "follow along" so can the PC ones, or they can sit there with thier thumb up thier butt for all i care.
i agree that is he doesn't follow or do anything, you shouldn't stop.. plus, if he is a threat and you have toher threats, agree to meet somewhere along the way away from the NPCs, maybe even cut a deal that he will dispose of them and you will pay him for the service, that way you RP it...
' Wrote:#2. Yes it is a boring life, as being a trucker may be, but pirates do it, all day every day. Why? Because it's how we make, and keep, the credits we earn. The difference, i might make 10 mil on a GOOD run, on other less important ones i do just because i like them, im barely making 1.5 mil for 20 minutes of flying, dodging, radiation damage, ect ect. What has the pirate done in this time, most likely if he has a good jumphole spotted out, he's probably pirated 4 or 5 people and made about 20 million, for floating and chatting it up with his buddies. So don't whine when i refuse to just hand over my credits without a fight, a chase, or 5 minutes of negotiations.
i both trade and pirate (different chars of course), and on a normal run you can get up to 18 mil in 25 minutes, depends on the ship you have, that is why as a pirate i ask for dfferent amount depending on the size and cargo of a trader.
i doubt that you get pirated by 4-5 pirates on a back water run with little profit. as for making 20 millions - i begg a differ.. you rarely get even close to ten mill on a normal day, and you have a lot of hazards where you pirate.
' Wrote:#3. Being pirated or better put as TAKING MY MONEY! is a VERY tasteless encounter... Thats the RP of it, don't try to nice it all up, your a cutthroat pirate killer, act like it and deal with the reputation it gives you, or don't pirate. If you want "donations" start a charity.
i don't agree at all. it is the most common of RP encounters in game, and has more potential than the ocassional spur in some system.
it is part of the RP life of the server whether you like it or not, and i, as a trader, will be very annoyed and won't be as understanding if i don't get a good RP with it. i sometimes even fly a certian path to encounter pirates.
the game is not about making money, it's about the RP, without it you might as well go trade and play on a PVP server.
' Wrote:#4. RP for a trader is to get from point A to point B the quickest possible way. For me this means i only "chat" while im in a tradelane or the autoflight since im busy piloting the rest of the time. Secondly if the guy shoots at me and my shield barely moves, then why on earth would i pay up? The pirate has to BE A THREAT before i will even think about paying. Do i drop my cargo for NPC pirates, not unless it will end with my death. Will i do it for PC one's asking for credits, if i think i have a chance of getting away or fending off the attack, no i won't. Nor will i sacrifice piloting my ship or aim to tell you this so you CAN catch me or finish me off. Sorry don't mean to offend, but the "better" pirates have gotten my creds before. I'm sorry, i fly fast.
look at it this way, the talk is being conducted by speaking RP wise, pilots are not typing in what they want to say, they have a head set they talk to.
if a pirate is in no position to threat your vessel, be my guest, shoot at him or just keep running.
but if a pirate is a threat to you, the RP logic will be stop and pay up, and not go down with your ship just for the sake of not paying cause you have a respawn button.
' Wrote:#5. As a trader I HAVE NEVER F1'ed on this server. (As a capship i got stuck once and was forced to but thats a diff story.:P)
this is good, keep it up.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Xoria - 03-23-2008
Quote:6.17 Owners of Pirate IDs have a right to attack:
- Military/Police
- Bounty Hunters
- Trader ships that do not pay for passage
- Unfriendly pirates
Quote:6.19 Pirates and terrorists have a right to deal as much damage as they see fit before or after demanding money from a trader ship, but killing trader ship before demanding money is not allowed. Attacking traders or demanding cargo is not allowed for cruisers and battleships, unless cruisers and battleship belong to Terrorist ID or Phantom ID owner.The self-defense rule does not apply if the pirate is the aggressor, because the self-defense exception is designed to provide options to the player who is being attacked by someone else.
If an act of piracy is taking place, then the pirate is the aggressor no matter who shoots first, and as rule 6.19 states, "killing trader ship before demanding money is not allowed."
If a trader shoots before the pirate does after the pirate has fired a CD or made a demand to halt, then the trader is acting in self-defense, not the pirate. A pirate claiming self-defense to allow him to blow up a trader that he was trying to pirate is like robbers who break into someone's house, slip and break an arm, and sue the homeowner for pain and suffering.
It is NOT the responsibility of traders to halt for pirates. It is the challenge of pirates to force a trader into a position where his only option is to pay or be destroyed. If the pirate fails to do that, it is his own lousy fault and good luck for the trader. Pirates talking about KOS and "hunt lists" for traders who manage to escape is just plain pathetic. Of course traders ought to do their best to escape without paying. As a pirate, I want nothing less than a challenge, and a real challenge requires a chance of failure. The day traders stop trying to escape me, is the last day piracy will be any fun.
As a trader, I will only pay a pirate who forces me into not having any other option, and I will report any pirate who fails to make a financial/cargo demand before destroying me.
Piracy is the most challenging occupation on the server, and if you can't handle it, then do something else. The difficulty is NO excuse to fail to follow the rules. And if you're using a supernova on a bomber, you'd better check for an armor upgrade first, because one SN will destroy any un-armored transport in Sirius.
And I say all of this as a pirate who has died under traders' guns, and a trader who has not yet lost his ship to a pirate.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Snapp - 03-23-2008
Accually RP for a trader is to make money. Is it not? So for me yes, the entire point of playing as my trader is just that, to make money as quickly as possible with as little loss as possible. Occasionally that might mean that i need to file an insurance claim on my ship, reload, and take a different route. But thats not a practice i follow, only when the "cost analysis" says it's more profitable to lose the cargo than to pay an overly large tax. Big companies and buisnesses do it all the time with crashes and injury claims. Besides, if this server wasnt about making money in RP then everyone would start with billions.
Independant traders don't have the financial backing of large clans or groups and the money i make with my trader is what allows me to play the other "roles" i enjoy, some more than being a trader.
As for RP, i do RP and i doubt many could say that i don't, just don't mistake my words here for how i "play", there are two different kinds of RP. Chat RP and RP by way of your actions. BOTH of which are important. Most of the time i rely on the action part of the rp, im not a "chatty" person so i don't usually say much, but rather i let my actions explain my intent.
Yes piracy is an "accepted" form of RP here, but nowhere does it say that it has to be easy, nice, or that i have to make small talk or willingly hand over my credits to "the common space thug" just because he asks for them.
As i said before... If you want to be a pirate, then act like one... Learn, Evolve, Adapt, and Be Quick. Don't just complain because theres no rule saying that traders HAVE to hand over thier money. If that ever becomes a rule then my trader will get deleted or i will go to another server.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Snapp - 03-23-2008
' Wrote:The self-defense rule does not apply if the pirate is the aggressor, because the self-defense exception is designed to provide options to the player who is being attacked by someone else.
If an act of piracy is taking place, then the pirate is the aggressor no matter who shoots first, and as rule 6.19 states, "killing trader ship before demanding money is not allowed."
If a trader shoots before the pirate does after the pirate has fired a CD or made a demand to halt, then the trader is acting in self-defense, not the pirate. A pirate claiming self-defense to allow him to blow up a trader that he was trying to pirate is like robbers who break into someone's house, slip and break an arm, and sue the homeowner for pain and suffering.
It is NOT the responsibility of traders to halt for pirates. It is the challenge of pirates to force a trader into a position where his only option is to pay or be destroyed. If the pirate fails to do that, it is his own lousy fault and good luck for the trader. Pirates talking about KOS and "hunt lists" for traders who manage to escape is just plain pathetic. Of course traders ought to do their best to escape without paying. As a pirate, I want nothing less than a challenge, and a real challenge requires a chance of failure. The day traders stop trying to escape me, is the last day piracy will be any fun.
As a trader, I will only pay a pirate who forces me into not having any other option, and I will report any pirate who fails to make a financial/cargo demand before destroying me.
Piracy is the most challenging occupation on the server, and if you can't handle it, then do something else. The difficulty is NO excuse to fail to follow the rules. And if you're using a supernova on a bomber, you'd better check for an armor upgrade first, because one SN will destroy any un-armored transport in Sirius.
And I say all of this as a pirate who has died under traders' guns, and a trader who has not yet lost his ship to a pirate.
Well said. *Applause*
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Jinx - 03-23-2008
the trader ID protects a trader from being shot down without a proper RP. the RP in that case is generally the demand for money. - a trader can attack a pirate of course - "the trader ID grants the owner the right to attack pirates"
if a trader attacks a pirate - the pirate has a right to defend himself. - i see no rule, nor any RP that would say otherwise.
the question is - is CDing a trader and asking him to stop an aggression equal taking down the traders shields by 50%? ( meaning, that a trader can defend himself with weaponfire as if he is defending himself ) ? - or is the act of CDing a trader and initiatiing RP / tax demand not an act of such aggression.
personally - i think that stopping a trader is not enough to allow a trader to wordlessly blow a pirate up and expecting NO defense from the pirate. the use of weaponfire must meet higher standards than that. - each time that someone pulls the trigger, there must be consequences. - if a trader acts like a marine with the intention to blow a pirate up before he made his little speech ( provided that the pirate wanted to do that of course ) .. the pirate should have the right to be allowed to act according to the self defense rules.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Why? - 03-23-2008
I think it really needs to be emphasized to pirates that it is their job to make themselves a threat. If you can't hit me with a cd you are not a threat, you are a joke.
At the point where I have run out of countermeasures and the pirate still has cd's is where I will stop and talk, but I have no reason to give in if I think I can get away, and the number of times I have gotten away from a dead stop with a pirate within cd range is large.
Also, a pirate needs to realize the trader can just die and start again. It is part of the game and to assume it is not part of the rp is just silly. It is a game mechanic that cannot be changed, so it really must be part of the rp. If I get a demand of money that is more than the value of my cargo, of course I am not going to ever pay it, that would be moronic.
Asking people to give you large sums of money, really anything over 1 million, means you really just want to kill them. You are just a terrorist, not a pirate, because if you aren't reasonable with your demands you will never get anyone to pay you.
And that is the key. If you really want money, be reasonable. a trader would rather stop and pay a small amount and get it over fast, then have to deal with a long chase that adds 20 or 30 minutes to their route, that kills any sense of profit they might have.
Even though sometimes the chases can be fun, the strong majority of the time they just mean the pirate charged way too much in the first place, and prolly doesn't really want to be a pirate, or it means the trader has no intentions of paying anything, and you might as well torture them so that they will think of paying you next time. You shouldn't blow them up, but do pretty much everything but, force them to either choose between getting the goods into port and buying everything on their ship again, or suiciding and losing their cargo anyways.
Also , again if you really want money, be willing to negotiate. If a trader is willing to negotiate, it means he will give you something, and something is always better than nothing.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Snapp - 03-23-2008
Yes, dropping a tradelane, using a CD, or hitting shields is a hostile act. If you were strolling down the sidewalk and someone hit you with a rock just before leaping out of a car with a shotgun would you consider the rock the first salvo and run, or stand there and wait for the shotgun weilding guy to get up close?
Like i said, speed and distance are our only advantages and if we must stop just because the pirate says so then that automatically puts us at a disadvantage. The pirate initiates "hostilities" when he fires a weapon or i see mention of Tax or Credits in the chat. Period.
"Why?" - bravo for your first post :P