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+--- Thread: Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. (/showthread.php?tid=73899)
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:why don't you make 3 shared accounts , put all ECG capships on there , problem solved,
inrp corsairs are not a big strong naval force,
they consist of small numbers fighting mostly in guerillia tactics
also if ECG members really wanna be flying caps so bad,
why dont pick out a role that suits that?
Gallic navy for instance , is a fine example of a role that involves a lot of capships , per example.
why screw the corsair lore? (that took years to evolve)
in my personal opinion corsair caps should be fully restricted.
the current state of things went way out of hand already.
Well Theres some valid points here.
If you check my previous posts IM not disagreeing with anything you are saying
But Its not my role to limit players: I leave that to admins or through a mutual consent that the majority of players will adhere to.
None of that is in place: we can talk all we like about what "Should" be the limit, but IM guessing somewhere in the larger designs for Discovery is the understanding that you cant steal joy from your players..
Removing / limiting / Ganking caps is stealing joy.
They've been put on the server as an enticement to work hard and save money.
The Admins and the designers haven't regulated cap use.
The factions don't have the authority to do so.
Theres a reason. This has to be fun as well.
Caps are fun.
What we need to focus on is how to have fun with the toys without ruining the game by confiscating all the toys.
Hence the purpose of this post.. which is now more of a political statement.
I still believe this is the way to go.
It will take a full developer instruction that IM wrong to convince me otherwise.
Having said that: i understand that this is a contentious issue, and different opinions need to be respected.
If a full ban comes in I will adhere to it, just like every other rule that ensures the best quality of experience on this server.
Cheers,
rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Thyrzul - 02-02-2012
Only admins could restrict ship usage out of factions, so your point about the official factions' head-in-sand doesn't sound too valid.
I presonally don't see how filled pockets would make regulated cap ship admirals from new players. Money only gives the possibility of possession, the usage is totally up to the player. I have a cap ship too, yet I haven't logged it for a good while as inRP there isn't much use of it yet. Of course I have it to keep the possibility of usage.
As for it not being only ECG problem: you are totally right about this. Yet the lore of other factions may allow bigger fleets than others'. You see, neither the Liberty Navy, nor the Rheinland Military suffers from starving, or anything critically serious financial issue that would prevent them to use huge fleets against each other in their war. The Gallic war machine flourishes like nothing else. Not the Corsair one, at least not that much. Corsair fleet is rather advanced in technology and skill than in numbers. And technological advancement doesn't have to mean bigger ships, but more efficent use of the materials they have.
Actually Option 1 seem to be working quite well so far, hence most of the factions run by it.
As an other "fresh" player (playing here for like four months only), I understand that new ones want to play too. But they have to understand as well, that they are not the first ones here, that there is a community already. The old kids did not left the playground. And they don't take away your toys, they just ask you to play reasonably and within the common sense of roleplay, if you want to fly under an official faction tag.
What you are trying to do, this middle way is a good idea in my opinion, and would work in many factions, Rheinlander or Gallic house militaries, some paramilitaries, just some examples. I'm just not sure Corsairs would build a huge fleet of capital class vessels to train admirals instead of spending their money on more food or vessels to pirate with. Corsair lore just doesn't seem to fit such flight school.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Laerethe - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:Only admins could restrict ship usage out of factions, so your point about the official factions' head-in-sand doesn't sound too valid.
I presonally don't see how filled pockets would make regulated cap ship admirals from new players. Money only gives the possibility of possession, the usage is totally up to the player. I have a cap ship too, yet I haven't logged it for a good while as inRP there isn't much use of it yet. Of course I have it to keep the possibility of usage.
As for it not being only ECG problem: you are totally right about this. Yet the lore of other factions may allow bigger fleets than others'. You see, neither the Liberty Navy, nor the Rheinland Military suffers from starving, or anything critically serious financial issue that would prevent them to use huge fleets against each other in their war. The Gallic war machine flourishes like nothing else. Not the Corsair one, at least not that much. Corsair fleet is rather advanced in technology and skill than in numbers. And technological advancement doesn't have to mean bigger ships, but more efficent use of the materials they have.
Actually Option 1 seem to be working quite well so far, hence most of the factions run by it.
As an other "fresh" player (playing here for like four months only), I understand that new ones want to play too. But they have to understand as well, that they are not the first ones here, that there is a community already. The old kids did not left the playground. And they don't take away your toys, they just ask you to play reasonably and within the common sense of roleplay, if you want to fly under an official faction tag.
What you are trying to do, this middle way is a good idea in my opinion, and would work in many factions, Rheinlander or Gallic house militaries, some paramilitaries, just some examples. I'm just not sure Corsairs would build a huge fleet of capital class vessels to train admirals instead of spending their money on more food or vessels to pirate with. Corsair lore just doesn't seem to fit such flight school.
Corsair is/was the biggest criminal organisation in Sirius; we can afford a huge fleet. Just another angle.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
I really appreciate your input here: You've got some valid and insightful points.
My opinion differs from yours, and I'm going to explain why below, but also: Its important to note that my opinion and your opinion, and sometimes even the opinion of the established players are all just that: opinions.
Even if its written in the laws today doesn't make it best or right - just established, and where it ISNT written, but instead just kinda implied, then there should be discussion on what is the best approach for everybody.. not just 5 people who have been wearing the same corsair (or outcast / liberty etc) shoes for 5 years.
.
.
.
Quite aside from opinion is intention:
Until I see concrete regulations, I'm going to try and build the best experience for as many as possible.
Only admins could restrict ship usage out of factions, so your point about the official factions' head-in-sand doesn't sound too valid.
I believe admins don't regulate in this way because they believe it defeats the efforts that they have made to bring cap ships to the players.
As to heads in sand:
Factions restrict caps in their own factions, and wlll refuse to let ppl have them with the faction tag.
Result: People fly the same ship out of faction.
Are there less caps? no.
Have they gained anything, except more lolwhuts in their skies? No.
What was the point then, despite some elitist adherence to a rather obscure notion that a planet of 300 million inhabitants can only afford 4 or 5 battleships.
Was it worth the reduction in the whole game-play experience of several hundred players to keep that notion in place for 10 people?
This type of thinking, I believe, is very much a head in sand attitude as it doesn't embrace players desires, but pushes them away.
I find the proud boast "MY faction doesn't allow players to have caps" as rather silly.. Its kinda saying you want less control over how the people in its space will act.
I personally don't see how filled pockets would make regulated cap ship admirals from new players. Money only gives the possibility of possession, the usage is totally up to the player. I have a cap ship too, yet I haven't logged it for a good while as inRP there isn't much use of it yet. Of course I have it to keep the possibility of usage.
I'm not understanding this point as pertinent to what we're discussing.
It's not for me to dictate how you wish to play as long as I'm not the boss of you. Thats for the peole that have or want to have the boss roles.
FOr me to be the boss of you depends on you accepting that, and respecting the decision that Ive taken on youer behalf
If I lead a faction (A boss role), and I say to you: Only bring your cap out on wednesday, thats a faction decision that you can live with or leave..
I can't and shouldn't suddenly say to you: Your cap ship is now illegal. No matter where IM coming from.
No'one should say that.. its a kick in the teeth for you as a player AND as an individual seeking to give and get enjoyment from this game.
As for it not being only ECG problem: you are totally right about this. Yet the lore of other factions may allow bigger fleets than others'. You see, neither the Liberty Navy, nor the Rheinland Military suffers from starving, or anything critically serious financial issue that would prevent them to use huge fleets against each other in their war. The Gallic war machine flourishes like nothing else. Not the Corsair one, at least not that much. Corsair fleet is rather advanced in technology and skill than in numbers. And technological advancement doesn't have to mean bigger ships, but more efficent use of the materials they have.
Well thats more about the popularity of the different factions.
I suspect everyone on the server has at least 1 corsair pilot.
Its more fun than Kusari..lets face it. Corsair appeals especially to 30 something eurpoean Caucasian men cos its the pirate thing.
If the server was in Asia, we'd have a lot more Blooddragons and Kusari...
Also: Corsair has a lot going on with so many enemies, and its quite varied. People go where the fun experiences are..
the fact is everyone goes on about ECG being these cap whore gankers.. but Hessians and OC and all sorts have really enjoyed coming in and challenging us...
Gamma has seen some very interesting engagements.. and I'm sure ECG has contributed a lot of positive experiences, for all it imperfections..
Lastly:
If we build a Corsair faction that runs events every week, and invites casual gaming, and doesn't come down too hard on players just cos they haven't studied rule 43.a off posting 66 on the forum from 2 years ago... it doesn't mean its a less worthy group of players as another more established group.
It just sets the bar a little bit lower regarding where people are allowed to start enjoying themselves.. I expect before long EVERYONE will want to be involved.
I want 225 members in the ECG :-)
Actually Option 1 seem to be working quite well so far, hence most of the factions run by it.
No. see above. it doesn't work at all as far as I can see.
I would venture to guess that 90 % of cap ships on the server are out of faction and that at any one time 90% of caps IN THE SKY are out of faction and therefore not restricted to faction conduct rules.
Would love to see the server side statistics on this.
As an other "fresh" player (playing here for like four months only), I understand that new ones want to play too. But they have to understand as well, that they are not the first ones here, that there is a community already. The old kids did not left the playground. And they don't take away your toys, they just ask you to play reasonably and within the common sense of roleplay, if you want to fly under an official faction tag.
Theres a middle ground. The older kids don't own the playground or the toys.. they get to explain how the toys should be treated certainly.. but lets not kid ourselves that elitist restrictions put in place by a few older guys cos "thats the way they want to play" is ANY good conduct when faced with the fresh influx of new people and new ideas.
Change is a constant with creative outlets like this, and that change must be allowed to come from new places. Change isn't bad. Evolution is good right? :-)
Expecting change to go away is self defeating and unhelpful.
What you are trying to do, this middle way is a good idea in my opinion, and would work in many factions, Rheinlander or Gallic house militaries, some paramilitaries, just some examples. I'm just not sure Corsairs would build a huge fleet of capital class vessels to train admirals instead of spending their money on more food or vessels to pirate with. Corsair lore just doesn't seem to fit such flight school.[/color]
As I said: I really appreciate your input here: You've got some valid and insightful points.
I dont think you are wrong.
I dont think the old school guys are wrong either..
I speak for around 20 guys who dont think its fair to be told they cant enjoy themselves by other players simply because those other players enjoy things differently. I don't think they are wrong.
I think everyone can be accomodated.. Thats the point of the option I speak of.
Lots of players want to play corsair.. Unless you have groups like the ECG trying to help them with tthier cap ships the madness will increase... The only alternatives are to prevent ppl playing corsair.. or blanket ban on corsair cap ships.
And frankly those are horrifc ideas that only the most fanatic fascist of players would consider for more than a second : Lets destroy the enjoyment for all other players because we don't like the way the game is played.
Cheers,
Rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Yber - 02-02-2012
I only can say that since I saw 7 ECG, 6 of them caps, chasing a lone bomber around Gamma... I lost all hopes about you ECG guys. Just saying. Let's see if I'm wrong, eh?
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:I only can say that since I saw 7 ECG, 6 of them caps, chasing a lone bomber around Gamma... I lost all hopes about you ECG guys. Just saying. Let's see if I'm wrong, eh?
If you check the rules of engagement posted in the very first post you'll see that there is now a ban on Capital ships engaging smaller craft unless directly fired upon or when without the support of smaller craft.
Otherwise You'll also note that we are introducing a limit on the number of capitals that can be present..
Of course.. this will take a while to implement. We are not there yet.
Give us time.
Cheers,
Rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Thyrzul - 02-02-2012
' Wrote:not just 5 people who have been wearing the same corsair (or outcast / liberty etc) shoes for 5 years.I'd rather not call the three official factions and part (of not all) of the dev team mere 5 players.
' Wrote:Only admins could restrict ship usage out of factions, so your point about the official factions' head-in-sand doesn't sound too valid.I never said they would, I just pointed out the inability of official factions to act about those who do not belong to them.
I believe admins don't regulate in this way because they believe it defeats the efforts that they have made to bring cap ships to the players.
' Wrote:Are there less caps? no.You may misunderstood me, I did not say the official factions want to restrict cap ship usage in general, I said they make restrictions within the faction itself. As I pointed out above, they don't have much effect on indy cap ships.
Have they gained anything, except more lolwhuts in their skies? No.
What was the point then, despite some elitist adherence to a rather obscure notion that a planet of 300 million inhabitants can only afford 4 or 5 battleships.
Was it worth the reduction in the whole game-play experience of several hundred players to keep that notion in place for 10 people?
' Wrote:You somewhere mentioned wealth and regulated cap pilots in a sentence, I did not see the logic in it, that's why I added this. Then added my example.
I personally don't see how filled pockets would make regulated cap ship admirals from new players. Money only gives the possibility of possession, the usage is totally up to the player. I have a cap ship too, yet I haven't logged it for a good while as inRP there isn't much use of it yet. Of course I have it to keep the possibility of usage.
I'm not understanding this point as pertinent to what we're discussing.
' Wrote:It's not for me to dictate how you wish to play as long as I'm not the boss of you. Thats for the peole that have or want to have the boss roles.Faction leaders doesn't have to restrict your cap usage to days, they can set which ranks can use which ships and which ones can't. And restriction have to doesn't mean the complete denial of usage of caps.
FOr me to be the boss of you depends on you accepting that, and respecting the decision that Ive taken on youer behalf
If I lead a faction (A boss role), and I say to you: Only bring your cap out on wednesday, thats a faction decision that you can live with or leave..
I can't and shouldn't suddenly say to you: Your cap ship is now illegal. No matter where IM coming from.
No'one should say that.. its a kick in the teeth for you as a player AND as an individual seeking to give and get enjoyment from this game.
' Wrote:Well thats more about the popularity of the different factions.Faction popularity has nothing to do with inRP capabilities of a group/nation/company. Neither the location of the server has to do anything with faction popularity, you can connect from like anywhere, if you can estabilish a decent connection.
I suspect everyone on the server has at least 1 corsair pilot.
Its more fun than Kusari..lets face it. Corsair appeals especially to 30 something eurpoean Caucasian men cos its the pirate thing.
If the server was in Asia, we'd have a lot more Blooddragons and Kusari...
' Wrote:Also: Corsair has a lot going on with so many enemies, and its quite varied.This is true for many other factions too.
' Wrote:No. see above. it doesn't work at all as far as I can see.Again, official factions aren't for preventing any non-official from flying cap ships. They are for keeping the RP value of the server. If restricted ship access is part of their roleplay, they will restrict those ships.
I would venture to guess that 90 % of cap ships on the server are out of faction and that at any one time 90% of caps IN THE SKY are out of faction and therefore not restricted to faction conduct rules.
Would love to see the server side statistics on this.
' Wrote:Theres a middle ground. The older kids don't own the playground or the toys.. they get to explain how the toys should be treated certainly.. but lets not kid ourselves that elitist restrictions put in place by a few older guys cos "thats the way they want to play" is ANY good conduct when faced with the fresh influx of new people and new ideas.Yea, they don't own the server or the monopoly to fly ships. But they do own what they made out of them. The background stories, the general lore, the lore of each faction. You cannot claim a sandcastle which you didn't build. And the old kids could get angry if you step on them. Respect their work, as I do. Play with them, get into an official faction (doesn't have to be corsair), learn from them, learn the way they play. Play with them and they will play with you. Because you worth more with friends than without them.
' Wrote:Change is a constant with creative outlets like this, and that change must be allowed to come from new places. Change isn't bad. Evolution is good right? :-)Changes can be bad. They can turn out to be either good or bad. If you look at how older players play, you may be able to develop your gameplay in a way it can make a change which eventually turns out to be good.
Expecting change to go away is self defeating and unhelpful.
And just because I say I don't think a massive cap fleet goes well along with Corsair RP, I don't mean to rip off all lolwuts from their lollegates. I'd just rather not mix this form of gameplay with roleplay.
Addition: I've seen madvillain's ninjapost, and your response to that, two lines hit my eyes.
"The Admins and the designers haven't regulated cap use.
The factions don't have the authority to do so."
Yes, factions do have the authority. I don't think the US Navy would allow Bill Gates to have his own carrier, if he eventually decides to join the navy.* Why would the faction leader then allow ensigns to fly caps?
*They wouldn't allow either, lol.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Laerethe - 02-02-2012
I'll leave your communcation for Rmorph to respond; however, I would like to say one thing.
Limiting usage of capital ships by rank has never worked; if someone has the means to get a capital, and wants the experience, they simply just have to create an indie character. Direct limitation of caps by rank will never work.
However, it is reasonable to take the stance pushing a requirement of a certain experience level before being allowed to engage in a cap ship; this will stop 'cap stacking', and limit the amount of ships that are just cannon fodder. In addition, it allows people to learn how to work well, as a unit.
Of course, those who don't wish to follow this can just go indie, and that is quite within their rights; however, such an approach is clearly far more logical, and the majority will understand that training can only be a good thing. Therefore, less will be pushed away and we'll have less lolwuts, especially those in ECG.
Just something to keep in mind, while pondering solutions/ideas.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Rmorph - 02-02-2012
Today I witnessed a fleet of 15 Hessian vessel enter Gamma and turn it into a desert:
7 Hessian Battleships taking it in turns to snap photo ops over Crete while the peashooter from the orbital docking ring pewpews at them is quite a vision.
LESS THAN 4 hours later, the Hessian battleships returned with ANOTHER COUPLE OF BOUNTY HUNTER CAPITAL SHIPS.
this is not 03:00 monday morning.
This is 10 pm on a midweek night with close to 200 players on the server.
http://imageshack.us/g/38/89632328.jpg/
All our little fighters and bombers, and the occasional unsupported BS were simply turned to dust..
I had the opportunity to have my brand new Legate, which I purchased just yesterday (after countless hours sweating and sleepless nights mining, and being pirated, for silver) be destroyed by the same ships two times within 4 hours, simply because I was coming out of dock coincidentally.. I didn't lose anything but a few batteries so no worries.. but crikey - Baptism of fire!
I'm not saying this to pick on anyone . I had some highly enjoyable moments. I've posted in the Comms RP channel regarding the event and hope it will turn into a nice little RP-based event (The Vengeance of Crete! or some-such) that we can share with the other Corsair houses.
Its just that the relevance to this thread , and the irony of what occurred, as a counterpoint to this discussion, is so acute that I feel the need to comment:
Just cos there are no corsair caps in Corsair space doesnt mean there will be no caps in Corsair space.
What's more realistic now from an RP perspective?
The Corsairs can field more caps... or the Hessians can enter the system and wipe it out.
I suspect that would become a regular occurance if Corsair cap usage is limited for the sake of "remaining pure".
Now I can't help but think (rather smugly I suppose) that if the ECG had had 10 players in system we could have had 10 capital ships up there and it might have been a fair fight.
We didn't, because, based from the feedback in this thread it was decided that we would pull the fleet out so that we could demonstrate to the citizens of this server:
1. We are listening and respect when other players say we are filling up Gamma. So we moved out of sight.
2. To show we are capable of giving and taking orders, in a united ship movement.
3. To show you guys: We are not the source of the problem. Caps are everywhere.
Now.
I will leave it to my elders and betters to justify fleets of those sizes from Hessians and Bounty hunters entering our space.
I will leave it to them to explain Hessians and Bounty hunters teaming up AT ALL.
Instead I will simply say:
The rules of fleet conduct and engagement, as defined in the very first post WOULD RESOLVE THIS PROBLEM if they were observed server wide.
I can't make that happen, but I can offer it as an ECG rule, and hope you see the benefit of what we are describing here, and what it is attempting to alleviate..
From what I understand (it was before my time) before the ECG arrived and started "Cap spammin" Gamma was just a playground for invading fleets.
Does that sound right? Does that satisfy the Corsair story?
No other step, apart from removing caps or limiting players access to them, would work as effectively as applying those rules or something equivalent, and neither of those 2 steps could be taken without significantly reducing the game-play experience for everybody on this server.
I was never so sure of what I've been talking about, until right now when I witnessed Gamma burning.
Rmorph.
Capital Ship Guidelines - Rules of engagement. - Omicron - 02-03-2012
7 hessian battleships? Go imagine that 7 bombers will put them down more efficiently and with less cassualties than 7 other capital ships.