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+--- Thread: Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon (/showthread.php?tid=76474)
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - SA_Scavenger - 03-15-2012
' Wrote:I'd rather see a centralised Earth space agency push development than any one country. Last thing we need is another global pissing contest over Mars, between the US, China and Russia.
Plus countries tend to be dicks when it comes to sharing and playing nice. It'd be great if there was a unified space council, because then there'd be so many biases tugging at the due process that everyone would be discriminated against equally. Yay for level handed treatment!
EDIT: Also, is it just me, or does that timeline sound like 99% impractical posturing? I'll be amazed if the Russians can put their money where their mouth is.
I like competition, it gets things moving. Countries acting like dicks tends to get other countries to think of new and innovative ways to accomplish the same task and perhaps make another discovery along the way.
One world space agency, count me out, thank you very much.
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Vladimir - 03-15-2012
I bet you also believe in free market.
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - SA_Scavenger - 03-15-2012
' Wrote:I bet you also believe in free market.
Well of course, why would anyone work in a market where someone else gets their pay?
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Vladimir - 03-15-2012
Why would anyone work in a market is the question to begin with.
inb4 wage slavery is not slavery.
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Klaus Lange - 03-15-2012
' Wrote:Get yourself ready for space journey:D
But no. Im sure we will not live so long when space will be opened to humans as elevator...
Maybe we'll live not as long for interstellar travels (or even to far outskirts of Sol system), but short holidays on orbit, why not?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Galactic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Spaceport
With new type of engine invented by MIT graduate, even cruise on liner to Jupiter and back could be possible.
Orbital Spa and Cruise?
copied from:
http://www.gizmag.com/ad-astra-ion-engine-...-39-days/12342/
New ion engine could reach Mars in 39 days
By Michael Mulcahy
18:41 July 28, 2009
Last week, as the world celebrated the first lunar landing, Apollo 11 astronauts Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins both called for NASA to make Mars its next goal. But the chemical propulsion system that took them to the moon would take six months, at least, to get a man to Mars and cost hundreds of billions of dollars. However, a new ion plasma rocket being developed by another former astronaut, Franklin Chang-Diaz, could potentially reach Mars in just 39 days using a fraction of the fuel.
The problem with traditional rockets is that they're terribly inefficient. About 90% of a mission's initial weight is fuel, most of which is burned up escaping earth's gravitational pull. After that, a traditional rocket could only slowly coast to Mars. Very slowly. Scientists describe rocket efficiency in terms of specific impulse, which is a rough measure of how fast fuel is ejected out of the back of the rocket. A chemical rocket has a relatively low specific impulse of 450 seconds - in other words, it gets one pound of thrust from one pound of fuel for 450 seconds.
Chang-Diaz's prototype, however, promises specific impulses as high as 15,000 seconds. How? Well, his rocket doesn't achieve propulsion by combusting fuel but, rather, by superheating atoms to create and expel a plasma plume.
The Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR, for short) consists of three linked magnetic cells. The first stage works a bit like a kettle, heating the atoms of a neutral gas like argon with a radio frequency (RF) generator until electrons 'boil' off, creating plasma.
The plasma is now very hot ' about 50,000 degrees Celsius ' but not hot enough to produce efficient thrust. The second stage of VASIMR acts as an amplifier, further energizing the plasma using electromagnetic waves. By now, the plasma reaches about a million degrees, comparable to the center of the sun.
The third and final stage is a 'magnetic nozzle' that converts the energy of this superheated plasma into directed motion and, ultimately, high velocity thrust. And, in case you're wondering how anything so hot could be possibly contained, that's one of the reasons the cells are all magnetic. A magnetic field not only helps heat plasma but also contains it, so it won't ever actually touch anything.
VASIMR could, theoretically, reach power levels a hundred times that of other ion engines. But there are still two big problems that need to be addressed before anyone can start packing their bags for Mars.
The first is that the 200kW VASIMR only produces a pound of thrust. That's more than enough in the vacuum of space, where the ion engine can fire continuously for months on end and a pound of thrust can push two tonnes of cargo from the sun to Jupiter in 19 months. But it means VASIMR will never get off the earth on its own ' it would need to catch a lift with one of those old gas-guzzling rockets.
The second issue is that, while the current engine can run entirely on solar power ' making it perfect for moon trips and other near-earth duties ' for a deep space mission, it would need more like 200MW of power. And only an on-board nuclear reactor could provide that.
In the meantime, Chang-Diaz and his colleagues at the Ad Astra Rocket Company (such a wonderfully old-fashioned name) are busy readying VASIMR for a 2012 test with NASA on the International Space Station. It could just be the beginning of a new power in long-distance space travel.
![[Image: vasimr--0.jpg]](http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/vasimr--0.jpg)
![[Image: vasimr-.jpg]](http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/vasimr-.jpg)
![[Image: vasimr--2.jpg]](http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/vasimr--2.jpg)
' Wrote:Hahaha no. Our best hope is getting a government system that doesn't give a crap about what the majority wants, because the majority always wants only bread and circuses. That way we can concentrate on fundamental science without worrying about all this talk how impractical it is.
But anyway, i want to believe. Can't sit on the top and think it'll be that way forever. Roskosmos isn't in the best state right now, but things steadily improve. New kosmodrom is surely being built, new rocket is in development for long enough time for sure, and i want those nuclear engine projects and many other great ideas being unburied already.
We need someone with vision, who could persuade majority benefits of space exploration.
And maybe Roskosmos isn't in the best form, but that Russian rockets are exclusively supplying International Space Station since end of US space shuttles program.
Also do not forget about China, India and Brasil, they have their own space programs on different levels of advance. It seems from that trio China is the most advanced country.
EDIT: that new rocket under development is Topol, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_space_program
' Wrote:Eh, no one doubts that if we put in the effort to master intra-system space travel, the returns will be quite awesome...
It just takes a lot of initial investment, and by lot, I mean a lot. One country alone probably cannot shoulder the load. A trans-national space service with joint funding might do the trick, then you can start putting people on Mars and the Moon and stuff....
I'm afraid it's just a dream, impossible in real world. Every state want such technologies and strategic positions (bases in space, on the Moon, on Mars) only for themself. No one wants to share something what could be difference between jumping and flying.
Of course space exploration require strong economy and scientific support. Maybe cheaper methods of space flights will be available in the future.
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Vladimir - 03-15-2012
Quote:EDIT: that new rocket under development is Topol, right?
No, Topol is a military missile and it's pretty much already developed. I'm talking about Angara.
As for China and it's space program, seriously? They can't invent anything new and never could. All they do is just copy old soviet tech. They got to the point of trying to make a space station, well, good job. Shame chinese copies of really high tech stuff never become as good as originals. Look at their fighters - they still cannot make a good enough engine for their 4th generation rip-off.
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Luksiboj - 03-15-2012
Quote:RSA
Rheinland Space Agency hehehehe?
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Lonely_Ghost - 03-15-2012
Yay, topic about space!!!
I remembe my school work- project of space craft, to reach Mars.
Quote:Maybe we'll live not as long for interstellar travels (or even to far outskirts of Sol system), but short holidays on orbit, why not?
Its probably nice buisnes for Russia in nearest future, if USA wont owerjump them with Orion... or this new project of new generation of shuttles. But the problem is- SOJUZ, which realy rocks, made only for such orbital travels. Its reliable orbital-landing craft. They are used as emergency evacuation from ISS. But hell yeah, soon, orbital travels should become very easy, and much cheaper. Its 2000 $ per 1 kg to take it to orbit.
Quote:I'm afraid it's just a dream, impossible in real world. Every state want such technologies and strategic positions (bases in space, on the Moon, on Mars) only for themself. No one wants to share something what could be difference between jumping and flying.
Of course space exploration require strong economy and scientific support. Maybe cheaper methods of space flights will be available in the future.
You know... I heared one intresting opinion. I fully agree with it.
We had Very nice resoults, in early days of space exploration. USSR have sended probe to Moon in 1959.
Jurij Gagarin in 1961. Mission to Moon in 1969. Sergej Korolov was constructing super carrier rocket to reach mars. Prototype of Sojuz, but for Mars expedition was made... Noone were thining about profit, higher payment. People were ready to work 24/7 for free, on their intusiasm. And space accepted them.
Now.... almost everyone do care about profit. No income=no deal. Our main ideology now- destroy everything, while extrackting last coin of profit. Space wont forgive such attitude. Its not market, or money farm. With such ideology- we can even forget about Moon, not even Mars.
P.S. Moon already non-available for us. Aliens there.:nono:
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - Klaus Lange - 03-15-2012
' Wrote:No, Topol is a military missile and it's pretty much already developed. I'm talking about Angara.
As for China and it's space program, seriously? They can't invent anything new and never could. All they do is just copy old soviet tech. They got to the point of trying to make a space station, well, good job. Shame chinese copies of really high tech stuff never become as good as originals. Look at their fighters - they still cannot make a good enough engine for their 4th generation rip-off.
Well, thanks to huuuge economy, Chinese military forces are quickly upgrading, I suppouse also space program. Predictions are in the next decade People's Republic will construct their own aircraft carriers, what will dramatically change balance of the power in Pacific region.
' Wrote:Yay, topic about space!!!
I remembe my school work- project of space craft, to reach Mars.
Its probably nice buisnes for Russia in nearest future, if USA wont owerjump them with Orion... or this new project of new generation of shuttles. But the problem is- SOJUZ, which realy rocks, made only for such orbital travels. Its reliable orbital-landing craft. They are used as emergency evacuation from ISS. But hell yeah, soon, orbital travels should become very easy, and much cheaper. Its 2000 $ per 1 kg to take it to orbit.
You know... I heared one intresting opinion. I fully agree with it.
We had Very nice resoults, in early days of space exploration. USSR have sended probe to Moon in 1959.
Jurij Gagarin in 1961. Mission to Moon in 1969. Sergej Korolov was constructing super carrier rocket to reach mars. Prototype of Sojuz, but for Mars expedition was made... Noone were thining about profit, higher payment. People were ready to work 24/7 for free, on their intusiasm. And space accepted them.
Now.... almost everyone do care about profit. No income=no deal. Our main ideology now- destroy everything, while extrackting last coin of profit. Space wont forgive such attitude. Its not market, or money farm. With such ideology- we can even forget about Moon, not even Mars.
P.S. Moon already non-available for us. Aliens there.:nono:
That all things happened in communism, economically inefficience system. That's why USSR lost Cold War - they just couldn't resist pace of arms race. Every state action should be profitable, if not in money, then in technology, influence, acces to resources... That's why nations organized themselves into states - for security and prosperity, not for travels. It can be sad, but this is reality of this world.
Russia plans missions to Mars and the Moon - SA_Scavenger - 03-15-2012
Nice thing for China is that it has a huge economy and no welfare, which means, huge amounts can be spent on research and military, as well as massive infrastructure development . Think the West will catch on? Nope.