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+--- Thread: Bring back smuggling and blockade running (/showthread.php?tid=92001)
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - Duvelske - 01-04-2013
(01-04-2013, 04:24 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Bumping prices while jumptrading is still possible is just asking for powertrading... Kill group jumps, and moving along the lanes/holes will return to normal. With the appropriate amount of piracy/cop interdictions preying on it. My $0.02 - I've never been a fan of groupjumps for trade purposes. Given we've recently seen that even the Congress barge was involved in a Cardi/Slave jump trade, made it clear to me that this crap's gone WAY too far...
There'll be another few routes north come 4.87 for you junkers to take. T23/37 hole won't be the bottleneck -> T39, and even the Kusari way will be available. But that doesn't help right now.
Well i think this is also a problem of the admins. As i think these things where given for RP. not to powertrade! if you inRP supply a base with it i would say YES. or just fly it solo and RP with it. what harm can it do? But there are options enough to solve this. bring in a jumpdrive cooldown period? or give the owners of barges more restrictions. I even saw some IC barges just go from okinawa to plain NEW LONDON! and sell h3 instantly. how is that for the economic routes? it brings down traders to haul and pirates to pirate.
Also group jumpings could be used for fun. Like jump battleships to an encounter. with other forces. It is something wich i sometimes do with some of my ships. To help others fast its with the mk3 jumpdrive like 30 secs and boof.. you there. think it wont harm the traders much if the smuggling will be more interested. And well barge owners are in my view more responsible for it then others with 5k ships for example. (inRP then)
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - SA_Scavenger - 01-04-2013
It's way too easy to see a Congress tagged vessel either going through Tau 23 to Tau 37 and then waiting for them to jump back into Tau 37 via Alpha with cardimine and take screenshots before the player even has time to take control of their ship after the jump sequence.
Sure, the barge is a hassle. I didn't even have any stake in that operation whatsoever. I'm more worried about seeing just how easy it is to get caught now and how much damage it can cause.
By the way, can no respond to the cloak question, since we have zero way to counter that? We wouldn't even know if we were caught considering the person does not need to uncloak.
There's a right way to play these games and there's a wrong way. Telling you now, the way it's being played now kills incentive to smuggle and actually causes more harm than fun. Hell, am I the only one who possibly thinks that a BAF pilot could see a congress tagged ship coming from Gamma and then wait for him at Trafalgar and when he jumps into New London, put on his cloak and then wait? The ability to meta-game here is off the chart.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - captain_obvious - 01-04-2013
(01-04-2013, 02:06 PM)Narcotic Wrote: I fully agree.
I can still remember the good times (...)
The profit for smugglers has to be increased by at least 25%.
That. Those were the nice times indeed. Real smugglers with smuggler IDs.
(01-04-2013, 08:23 PM)Duvelske Wrote: As i think these things where given for RP. not to powertrade! (...)
I even saw some IC barges just go from okinawa to plain NEW LONDON! and sell h3 instantly. how is that for the economic routes? it brings down traders to haul and pirates to pirate.
It's just the top of the iceberg.. There is that [XXL] Flying barrel who insolently only uses his barge for powertrading... srsly.. just take a look at him, you will find that barge jumping between Alpha and Alberta only.. Before that he was jumping between Languedoc and Delta (luckily a valor solved the problem, but still.)
(01-04-2013, 04:24 PM)AeternusDoleo Wrote: Given we've recently seen that even the Congress barge was involved in a Cardi/Slave jump trade, made it clear to me that this crap's gone WAY too far...
This also prooves, that jumpdrive should go. Otherwise it's just a device what people are going abuse. True, it can be useful too.. right after this whole thing will be balanced (e.g.: prevent powertrading)
But it's getting a littlebit out of topic... sorry for that. Back to smuggling, a lot of thing should be nerfed, and already nerfed, smuggler id shouldn't be in that group. Pretty much for what spazzy said.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - Amon.Cire - 01-04-2013
I used to love smuggling. I want to love it again. Full support for trying to make it viable again. it will be good for individuals and the community.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - Jack_Henderson - 01-04-2013
(01-04-2013, 08:40 PM)SA_Scavenger Wrote: It's way too easy to see a Congress tagged vessel either going through Tau 23 to Tau 37 and then waiting for them to jump back into Tau 37 via Alpha with cardimine and take screenshots before the player even has time to take control of their ship after the jump sequence.
It is a risk. A manageable risk because all the tools that the opposite side has (player list mainly) is also available for you. I know, of course, that this is not much fun, but if you want to do it, only enter a system when there is no one there. It is meta, ofc. But... your hunters are using the same system. Look at it as "cat&mouse" game.
Quote:I'm more worried about seeing just how easy it is to get caught now and how much damage it can cause.
Yep. Hawk said in his post how it should be normally: Punish the individual, not the whole faction. I think this should apply to every misconduct. But in Disco, it is way too often: "Official?! Shady?! Caught them?! Nice, threaten with FR5 and pews!!! Muahahaha".
Quote:By the way, can no respond to the cloak question, since we have zero way to counter that? We wouldn't even know if we were caught considering the person does not need to uncloak.
I was playing a few rounds against cloaky Rheinland ships trying to catch people going to Diamant. The only way is: massive player list use. Not much fun and that is why it was stopped. Risk too great.
The only way is: cloaky ship of your own which however digs into your cargo hold and likely makes smuggling for anything but rp-goods uninteresting.
Quote:There's a right way to play these games and there's a wrong way. Telling you now, the way it's being played now kills incentive to smuggle and actually causes more harm than fun.
I think it is not so wrong. Actions carry consequences. A smuggler caught should be a smuggler punished (or he rps his way out, anyway: there is rp).
What is wrong, though, is that in Disco generally the consequences are much too quick and much too harsh. Look at Iran in rl... or North Korea... they have done a lot of weird stuff, and hey... they are still intact.
Hawk Wrote:Smuggling is fun. Yes you get blown up sometimes. That's part of the game, get used to it. That's one of the reasons I think the prices should be bumped, not just to make it more profitable, but also more risky. Make it so every smuggler is risking 20-30 mil on a load of contraband in a firefly. That will also deter smuggling in barges (something that should NEVER happen) because the risk will be too high.
Yes. A smugglers take considerable risk, they should get a reward.
The Barge question needs to be dealt with differently, though, because a Barge normally does not get caught. Jump it 40k off plane, unload... it's a 100 % fool-proof system. If your haulers see people, or if Barge player sees unknown contacts on player list, F1 Barge immediately.
Sadly, Jumpbarges + high profit does not go well with each other, I fear, and will keep smuggling from being boosted.
Hawk Wrote:The other thing is slap the smugglers who get caught. Fine them heavily, add them to the criminal registry, whatever you have to do. What is irritating some people is when the faction, not the individual is held responsible.
Good point.
In this last special case it was hard not to think of an organised Junker Congress operation, simply because a Barge is the most massive toy that flies around.
But generally, I 100 % agree: hit the smuggler, not a faction. Fine, FR5, shoot, ban from bases, etc.... but only the one who did it. Not all.
And... perhaps it would be nice, if the 1st time perpetrator could walk away with just a mild punishment (like credits, cargo loss) and not something that hurts for real (every diplomatic, large scale reaction). The risk of getting caught is something that is quite a lot of fun... every char should be allowed to risk it and know that if caught, it will hurt but it is not the end of the world.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - SA_Scavenger - 01-04-2013
Jack, you are simply not getting it at all. Getting caught is not the problem. It is WHERE they got caught, i.e. right outside the very Planet where the drug is sold. You can't play that game.
If I can just undock and get caught, there's a problem. There is no 'manageable risk' for a freelancer sitting right outside Planet Malta, there just isn't.
Anyway, I tire of this. You chaps want a solution to increase smuggling but the solution needed is not what you want.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - Lonely_Ghost - 01-04-2013
Smugling died because legal trade/jump trade/mining/missions gives money much better. Yeah, I agree, that smuggling better goes for RP, than for cash making, however, there could be much more space for black market and more runs with illegal goods.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - AeternusDoleo - 01-04-2013
I'll have a talk with Xoria on the smuggling issue. It's a multifaceted problem though. Top profit on a point-to-point trip with the jump trading still available is just a cashcow. If we want smuggling to have that kind of profit, we also need to keep in mind that factions such as the Zoners can often do it with their 5K transies. On some goods, IMG can as well. So unless the pirate train is beefed to the full 5K with the loss of a few turrets and a movement nerf, that'd create an imbalance...
Come to think of it. Is one of the reasons smuggling isn't common, that there are no smuggling ships with 5K cargo capacity? Does that deter people from doing the unlawful runs? The PiTrans and the Pilgrim Liner fill the combat transport roles for unlawful factions (and to some extent, the Raba and BWTrain as well), but the pirate factions don't really have a heavy train...
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - ryoken - 01-04-2013
I would love smuggling back/prices raised. But there are many issues, and they are mostly knob players doing stupid crap to ruin smuggling.
1/ as mentioned barges jump smuggling. Completely ruins it for all other smugglers.
2/ Freelancers reporting smugglers to lawfuls, and/or shooting them claiming they work for the law.
3/ Prices suck right now, so junkers can get more mining scrap, or legal trading. Same as big 5Krs get more legal trading.
4/ FR5s. Now this one really kills smuggling fast. 1 player in any ship spots you smuggling, and reports you to lawful groups, and your done. They FR5 you, so you cannot land anywhere lawful. Hence you cannot smuggle anymore.
5/ And this is my personal fav. Noob players that are Corsair/outcast taxing smugglers when they are actually helping those groups by tranporting thier cardi/artifacts.
So until all of the above is fixed somehow, there is no point taking the risk, when you can do no risk runs for more money, and less hassle.
RE: Bring back smuggling and blockade running - Jack_Henderson - 01-04-2013
(01-04-2013, 11:20 PM)SA_Scavenger Wrote: Jack, you are simply not getting it at all. Getting caught is not the problem. It is WHERE they got caught, i.e. right outside the very Planet where the drug is sold. You can't play that game.
If I can just undock and get caught, there's a problem. There is no 'manageable risk' for a freelancer sitting right outside Planet Malta, there just isn't.
Sorry, I hate that line but: You are doing it wrong.
Any ship can cruise in fast enough to not get caught, screened, etc. This takes a few seconds. Cargo scanner ranges are short. Getting the perfect timining is incredibly hard as a screenshot hunter.
For getting caught after undocking: cooperate? Ask an Outcast you know whether there is a non-Outcast? It's not that hard to cooperate.
If you want to reduce the risk:
Enter system after a scout said: "clear", then head up/down and approach the drop off from above/below. Have a scout confirm that no one is there. Then wait a little, to make people who knew the approximate cruise times undock from impatience. If that did not happen, dash in. If you see a contact at 14k, gtfo. He cannot locate you, if you come from off the plane before you are out of 14 k again. If he manages to pick you up and chases you, drop your cargo and shoot it. Even if someone undocks in your face on the last few k, he would not be able to gain control of his ship, select, scan, screen ship, screen hold, etc in the short time frame... and if you are really clever, you have 20 different cargo thingies in your hold, so that the first hasty cargo screen only shows crap. Could be difficult with "c"ardi, works with "s"laves 100 %.
If you sense an organised trap, play the "F1 in space patience" game and see what happens.
A Barge that is sitting right in front of the planet (!) is of course caught easily. If the loading operation had been done correctly, it would have been near zero risk. The only risk in a hidden Barge offloading is that the haulers are idiots and lead someone to your Barge or that you accidentaly end directly at the planet by jump coord drift (the latter being the only uncontrollable risk).
Quote:Anyway, I tire of this. You chaps want a solution to increase smuggling but the solution needed is not what you want.
What is the solution you want? If you ask for immunity of smugglers close to drop-off and buy-in points... sorry. It's roleplay and it would be lame to have such "blind zones", imo.