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+----- Thread: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback (/showthread.php?tid=14207)
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - Mímir - 03-13-2015
(03-13-2015, 03:35 PM)R.I.P. Wrote: Well honestly this whole thread needs renamed to "Congress Feedback and Hate thread" that is all most of you seem to be turning this into. This truly sickens me to see all of this, make me sad that the community has so much hate and rudeness. Does not fare well for this mod's future and i am sure makes many new players look and think why in the hell would i ever join an official faction and deal with all the petty arguing and hate. I for one will never join another faction again on here. Anyways i am done here, keep going with your flame fest on congress, some of you just make me sick.
Let me ask you this: Is it not rude to totally disregard pages of concrete feedback on the premise that it is all hate? Do you not think that some of the people posting here have a genuine interest in helping Congress (even if they don't agree with Congress actions) and invest their time in this? Is it not rude to keep brushing that off, pulling out the "hate" card every other post, even when people went into great detail describing why it isn't "hate" and actually is "help"? You guys are taking a massive dump on the community, and yet you still insist you are somehow victims, and yes that is very much a problem you guys need to fix yourselves.
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - SnakThree - 03-13-2015
Let's be honest here, Congressmen and Congresswomen, you are not saints, not innocent by posting insulting and rude comments here. Let your leaders handle the issues instead of trying to scrap your two cents in.
Look at Doria. Not Congress members. Incited a bickering by slandering LibGov and Liberty Navy out of nowhere.
Stop being ignorant self-centered players and accept the feedback without trying to derail it like you have done so in the past.
Remember, handling feedback properly is one of requirements for Official Faction Perks. So get your act together.
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - R.I.P. - 03-13-2015
*sigh* I said i was done here. Stop saying you guys, I am not a congressman anymore.
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - Narcotic - 03-13-2015
(03-12-2015, 04:56 PM)Snoopy Wrote: This is a feedback thread. Yes, feedback is being given but quite a bit of this is player vs player and the Congress Feedback page isn't the right place for it. If you want to do that, take it to skype. Quite a few posts have been made invised.
I've tried to cut out all the insults and name-calling, but now I've deleted 17 posts which were either out-off-topic, insulting or just completely non-constructive. If you feel that your post shouldn't have been removed, PM Pavel (or me).
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - Chuba - 03-13-2015
I had only good interactions with Congress in-game,it's always good (:
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - HuggieSunrise - 03-13-2015
(03-13-2015, 01:25 PM)Snak3 Wrote: @HuggieSunriseWhen did they not intend to levy, tax, or exact restitution based on the raid? and how does the community rule not bar these actions? cause their not specifically named? is that your point?
PoB build outside house space are immune to siege after refusing to pay taxes. They are not immune to abiding laws laid down by government. LibGov has not taxed that Puerto Rico.
Congress is at court for two crimes - Cardamine Storage and Shooting down Primary Fleets.
The community rule establishes the houses abilities in regards to pob in houses space not in neutral space.
The ID protects the lsf,ln, and lpi on the in game raids that ID does not give them cartblanche to make rp violating our faction rights and or our territory since they have zero ability to tax or concern themselves with those bases. Tickling the elephant doesn't make it a fog horn.
And I understand you will disagree with this thats why I implored on a higher power to rule on this. because that's their damn job.
(03-13-2015, 02:28 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: And forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Congress that asked for the trial? Why would they make that request, if they were just going to declare it a mock trial later and ignore whatever outcome resulted from it? Just for the fun RP?Ex arbiters I think should have say in thier feedback thread
You have one side who acceded to Congress demands for a trial in the hopes of resolution, and then you have Congress who from all accounts states that the trial is nothing more than fun RP.
What's missing here is accountability for one's actions. It's great to have fun and enjoy yourself ingame, but negative actions have negative consequences. Does Congress reasonably expect to skate after shooting lawful ships? Do they expect Libgov to turn a blind eye to selling Cardamine on their POB, which does exist in House controlled space? Liberty government enforces law in house systems + 1 system beyond, which includes PR.
I have seen absolutely no accountability on the part of Congress in this matter. At least not from the posts I've read in your feedback thread. It's disappointing, honestly. I understand that not everything stated here by Congress members, is representative of Congress leadership. That's highly confusing and it creates unnecessary flames. It would be ideal, particularly in this case, to have only members of Congress who are authorized to speak on behalf of leadership, posting here.
I rarely post like this but this mudslide has gone on long enough. Yes elements of the congress asked for a fair trial. But like i tried to say.. whats resulted? isn't, wasn't, and cannot be considered a real honest attempt at such a thing.
Putting more weight on whos at fault for the derailment of the thread is pointless its either an honest attempt at telling the story or its a farce and I dont think anyone is going to be happy with a farce. I mean lets be a little less accusatory about it and realize it needs to be handled better then this.
The accountability issue that you raise isn't so one sided in truth. there needs to be equal consideration and cooperation and if you dont have that pointing a finger at who screwed it up doesn't make it anymore legitimate or FIX THE PROBLEM.
The issue specifically i see in regards to the pob taxing issue is that libgov is cherry-picking their authority THIS THREAD They admit to not taxing these bases but where does it say they have the authority as a faction to ride into gaurd space and siege if we dont complay to thier demands? When they admit they have no authority to tax?
If you cant tax it you dont own it if you dont own it you have no claims. if you have no claims you have no power.
Again their ID lets them enforce liberty laws IN GAME IN the server. they did they seized cardamine in a sting. that's completely within thier ability the POB base system is straight forward it shoots whoever IFF is red (unless shenanigans) and deny docking who whom we prescribe.
but the problem here is the POB's are NOT transports or ships thier pob's and the pob's are protected by the community rules and clearly defined what territory libgov has to enforce its taxes upon and its retribution for not paying those taxes. Retribution or RULEs that can cause taxes levies and fines are the same thing dont tell me they aren't because
1. they aren't included in any permitted actions.
2. all the rule says is you cant tax. but it also bans actions related to demands for taxes. and guess what.. if you cant tax a thing you don't have the rights to harass it for anything else you deem. you cant MAKE UP authority where none exists. Piracy works this way according to the id and rules. and what i like to call reverse piracy or lawful rule enforceing is the same precedent of an attach int he rules its a DEMAND..
so if your house can not demand anything from bases not in house space why has this gone on so long?
Jesus there must be a misunderstanding! or a difference of opinion! WHY ISNT THIS BEING ADDRESSED FIRST INSTEAD OF THIS MEANINGLESS CRAP about WHO messed up WHAT thread?
I see a major conflict here and without admins to work THIS out into an interpretation that either green-lights libgov or denies it where going to continue having problems and conflict and issues in this feedback thread and with this whole fiasco IM BEGGING FOR ORDER here IM BEGGING for attention to this ISSUE.. and until its addressed nothing else matters.
A trial? yeah we requested a trial maybe its not the trial your thinking of bob maybe its the ruling on some of these faction rights and powers we have maybe we need a semblance of who powers what here. and why. cause all this crap has been spawned of ignorance.. libgov is just steam rolling ahead thinking thier ID includes power gaming other people bases and systems. well until you say yeah they can do that int he face of the concerns I don't think you can blame anyone in particular about that.. "accountability"
This is a loophole that needs to be patched and explained because im sure if anyone else had an ID that said do whatever you want even if the rules say you cant it would be easier then this. but they don't. there IS a conflict there is a precedent for SOME sort of ruling here.
If you disagree im sure you can see where this will go if you do not. It will only get worse.. there will be much more crap pulled in game and without and the blame game will just gyrate on and on and on.
Yes that is why im laying this all at the admins feet. and your non responses aren't helping.
I cannot agree that one factions id overrules the effective right to exsist and rp as we do. thats the bottom line here the pob rule hints at a limitation of libertys power, but if it turns out they can siege for lawful reasons and tax for lawful reasons and outmode our factions bases pob or otherwise then every pirate base is up for grabs.
you see where this cant be just a simple answer? this stuff needs to be carefully weighed and ruled upon.
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - Black Widow - 03-13-2015
(03-13-2015, 05:04 PM)Narcotic Wrote:(03-12-2015, 04:56 PM)Snoopy Wrote: This is a feedback thread. Yes, feedback is being given but quite a bit of this is player vs player and the Congress Feedback page isn't the right place for it. If you want to do that, take it to skype. Quite a few posts have been made invised.
I've tried to cut out all the insults and name-calling, but now I've deleted 17 posts which were either out-off-topic, insulting or just completely non-constructive. If you feel that your post shouldn't have been removed, PM Pavel (or me).
There is a way to solve these kind of problems in such a way that the outcome of any feedback / arguements would have to be accepted as the community decision.
If for e.g. the community appointed a panel of independent adjudicators who have no connection to any factions / are not members of any factions but have been in the mod for a while and thus have experience.
Such a panel could be asked to pass an unbias review on any arguement or feedback being contested by either side, and their judgement on it would be accepted as final due to their impartiality to either faction / side debating their point in an arguement.
Really this whole mess requires an independent third party review in order to reach a resolution.
Any panel appointed would have to consist of members voted in by the community and must not be a member of any faction / have any allegiance to a faction / devs / or admin team.
Sort of like a RP Jury Service
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - Black Widow - 03-13-2015
Coz all I see here is those who have connections to the Admin / Dev Team / Libertonian Side putting forward one side of the arguement and Congress defending on the other. There are hardly any third party opinions.
As such none can be taken literally as being the correct POV.
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - lomz - 03-13-2015
(03-13-2015, 03:43 PM)Mímir Wrote: Let me ask you this: Is it not rude to totally disregard pages of concrete feedback on the premise that it is all hate?They're not ignoring it. They're answering to pretty much everything that is being posted, although it's probably impossible to keep up with all of the hateful things about how every breath they take and every move they make is pure evil. This is my feedback on how the junker congress is handling this here.
(03-13-2015, 03:43 PM)Mímir Wrote: Do you not think that some of the people posting here have a genuine interest in helping Congress (even if they don't agree with Congress actions) and invest their time in this?It would not surprise me if a lot of congress players think that a lot of people here have absolutely no genuine interest in helping the Congress in any way, because this is also my very strong impression.
(03-13-2015, 03:43 PM)Mímir Wrote: Is it not rude to keep brushing that off, pulling out the "hate" card every other post, even when people went into great detail describing why it isn't "hate" and actually is "help"?Pulling the "hate" card is a very common thing here, and it is commonly done by some of the very same people who are complaining here. Including you.
(03-13-2015, 03:43 PM)Mímir Wrote: You guys are taking a massive dump on the community, and yet you still insist you are somehow victims, and yes that is very much a problem you guys need to fix yourselves.They are taking a massive dump on "the community"? Who are you to speak for "the community"? I have never, ever, felt that any congress person has taken a dump on me, and I doubt that I'm the only one. They are getting all of these pages of witch-calling and demonizing for what... for having some char pull a gun in a RP post? Are you guys for real?
Please... Take a step back, or two, or three, and take a good look at who is taking a dump on who here, my friend.
Someone here said that this is pretty sick, don't remember who or in what context. I agree though. "This community" seems to be pretty sick.
(03-13-2015, 05:22 PM)Chuba Wrote: I had only good interactions with Congress in-game,it's always good (:Likewise.
RE: .:j:. Junker Congress Faction Feedback - HuggieSunrise - 03-13-2015
The greater issue here without pointing out rule conflicts or differences in opinion.
I've had to moderate stuff like this in the past I've done it since before disco existed so im going to Impart you you an important lesson here. While my roleplay servers all had active moderation and results to peoples rp Discovery is way more static.
We are essentially exstending the story of what happens in game with forums threads and stories. I appreciate highly people want suspension and a good interactive post by post RPG but that doesent actually work in this circumstance. There too many hot heads on all sides. I dare say it will not work at all in this case.
Ideally everyone would come together develop lore between two factions with both parties liking the result. none of this ooc conflict none of the ooc snags and interpersonal BS. CLEAN and FUN and CREATIVE. but we arent even close to that mentality here. People are too busy pointing fingers at the past mentality of the congress and LN.
These two are worse then a barril of rattle snakes.
I love joe and sara (both of em) and JT and chris these people are friendly easy to get along with (yes I'm serous Chris too). If there wasent baggage this would all be a non issue. Factions change hands and this happens again?
The RP conflict that drives activity for both sides is being seen as an obstacle and not as the driving force of RP here. Thats a big mistake. Im calling it because ever many dragons evil sorcerers and deadly space pirates that have been killed over the years I've always had to make up a new threat a new protagonist. Disco however is more static. We all exchange these roles equally In game and on the forums.
Discoverys Rp balance is imperfect but its the blend of community rules that give official factions stake in the mods lore that makes things appealing.
It permits players to have a part to leave a legacy here and imprint on the story. People have Lived played and died here and those of us who remember them do our best to enshrine them or at least remember them in this legacy we all take part in.
Its not as easy as when a group of players on NWN decide to formulate a plan to kill the dragon emperor of fathi al fahdil.. succeed and get xp goodies and a cool story to remember.
In disco we have no npc's of relevance our characters are owned by us and when someone wants to kill our character you damn right were going to defend it. Factions included. There is no permadeath here.. infact critically speaking discovery must have some extremely impeccable ejection seats cause i dont think many volunteer to post results of every defeat they have. For me that would be nearly thousands of posts...
No what we have here requires the same level of planning and cooperation it takes for my players to formulate their adventures. We can have epic stories characters that live and die here if we dare to make them up int he first place. But whats going on in this latest drama is a symptom of this misunderstanding that cooperation is KEY.
I myself am vary afriad that the parties in this latest issue are beyond accord. But im going to point out why its important regardless.
We need the liberty navy we need the nemesis because without it running the black market is pointless and one sided. YOU NEED junkers you need official junker factions to be both sides of the lawful and unlawful otherwise who is Ln going to catch red handed?
If it was as simple as removing the contraband from the pob's that would be one thing but this issue keeps popping up. At some point help has to happen from both sides to make rp work.
Im not going to blame the Lib gov or the .:j:. for this break down. Im blaming the lack of cooperation.
You know who one of the biggest gun runners in history are? They arent some warlord they were governments selling surplus. Corrupt elements that should exsist withint he rp of the LN LPI and LSF do not exsist enough for the junkers to have the foothold they do in liberty.
But if thats the point if were being edged out of liberty does that benefit the mod? I dont think it does. i dont see how such a sone sided change benefits anyone at all.
The actions being pulled and the power play happening doesent seem to have a clear objective at least where I stand. And without a cooperative pact or idea on how they want this situation to evolve.. im compelled to say there IS not good reason for it.
Both parties have been in direlect of a working relationship. and you know how i know? When i ran the nomads I kept talking to the BHG order indies and officals all the time. they were interested in working up events and rp. the omicrons are dead now i mostly blame myself for not sticking around but that was rl's fault. but the breakdown in communication the being sick of disco the whole no one wants to play together BS is killing this place.
this lastest topic is just a symptom. and really when even the admins dont wanna rule or be concerned with it. then it really is the end.
the admins doing thier own thing
the devs doing thier own thing
the factions doing thier own thing.
we all effin deserve it. thats gunna be my final point on this mess. if you honestly want me to rply to something else beyond this pm me where you can find me. im over it.