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+--- Thread: The division of the server (/showthread.php?tid=10275)
The division of the server - Tenacity - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:And like I said, you should take it up with the admins. They approved the existence of a faction called RM, which anyone can see implies that it's meant to be the whole faction. I'm not saying your stance is invalid or doesn't exist, I'm saying you should put it through another channel.
I still take the stance that, until you can start directly controlling the NPCs your faction claims to control, you dont represent the whole faction.
Nobody can be an 'entire' faction, whether their name states it or not. The way I see it, the RM are the higher ranking rheinland military members, not the whole of the rheinland military. Independent rheinland military players may not be ranked as highly (and thus lack the RM nametag) but are still part of the military.
The fact that the RM takes the "we're the whole group" stance is very arrogant and elitist of it's members.
The division of the server - Unseelie - 07-11-2008
If they're the higher ranking members..doesn't that make them in charge?
I mean to say....higher ranking members of the Rhienland military make up the RM...so everyone else follows their commands....and is, therefore, RM....cause they command it.
The division of the server - Praetyre - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:I still take the stance that, until you can start directly controlling the NPCs your faction claims to control, you dont represent the whole faction.
Nobody can be an 'entire' faction, whether their name states it or not. The way I see it, the RM are the higher ranking rheinland military members, not the whole of the rheinland military. Independent rheinland military players may not be ranked as highly (and thus lack the RM nametag) but are still part of the military.
The fact that the RM takes the "we're the whole group" stance is very arrogant and elitist of it's members.
The RM are a higher authority on their own RP than you are, Tenacity. And the admins have approved their existence. Commanding NPCs is really a game mechanics argument, which I can use to say "no one is truly a faction member unless they get around the Freelancer-Alpha-X-X bug".
If something is called the Rheinland Military, it is the military of House Rheinland. This is common sense and the burden of proof is on the person who asserts the Rheinland Military is not the military of House Rheinland. And the admins have approved it as a legitimate entity, making it able to act as such.
You are entitled to think the current situation closes off RP, and like I said, take it up with the admins, who approved it, or ask Virus to change it to "New Berlin Defensive Fleet" or something and make the top rank "Admiral".
Why, from a rational perspective, is the thing called the "US Army" the armed forces of the United States of America and yet the entity called the "Rheinland Military" is not the armed forces of House Rheinland? And how is the RM the "upper ranks" if they have people at ranks as low as Private?
The division of the server - Laowai - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:And like I said, you should take it up with the admins. They approved the existence of a faction called RM, which anyone can see implies that it's meant to be the whole faction. I'm not saying your stance is invalid or doesn't exist, I'm saying you should put it through another channel, the source of this very issue.
Careful what you wish for there;)
The admins have approved this state of affairs as you say, however, the RM themselves, do not have to adhere strictly to this policy, they could choose to be more flexible with indies if they wanted to, (they don't need admin approval to do that) yet the RM chooses not to. Referring it to the admins, while legalistically sound, is simply passing the buck.
I side with Dusty's take on the Rm situation, it is actually the same take i take with any of the factions i play in - You have the ID, you're part of the NPC faction, whether you joined a player faction or not - simple as that. This i believe, applies to all factions, not just the RM
Arguing about - The US military this, and the US military that is just semantics - and its hardly applicable - This is a game, and its set up to be playable by anyone - there is a way to join the Rheinland forces without going through the RM, you do the missions, get the rep and buy the ID, simple as that. There is no corresponding power structure in a Real life military system and using it to support an ingame Role play stance is a stretch - Just my opinion.
The division of the server - Tenacity - 07-11-2008
the admins approved existence of your faction just like they approved the existence of the KNF, LN/NC/SA, and whatever bretonia's is.
They did not grant you the right to supress the ability of others to play this game, however. That's exactly what the RM does with 'independent' rheinland military players.
All you're doing is closing off an entire area of RP to an elitist group 'for the hell of it', and in doing so you've practically killed activity in rheinland. There arent enough RM members to be on 24/7, and when there's nobody to fight the criminal groups (Hessians, bundschuh, etc.) really have nothing to do, so they dont log on either.
The only people I ever see in rheinland nowdays are the (rare) pirates, and a ton of diamond/niobium traders. That's it, and it's all because the unlawfuls of rheinland want someone to fight and dont have anyone online to do that with.
Imagine if the same stance was taken with every other house military/police group. What impression do you think it'd give the new players here?
Noob logs on to server.
Noob launches from manhattan and sees an LN member in a battleship.
Noob says "hey cool, maybe someday I can get a battleship like that, it'd be fun to fly".
Noob trades and works up to a battleship.
Noob buys battleship, and then realizes that every LN member on the server is calling him a thief for using one of their ships, whether or not he intended to RP in it like he's supposed to.
The division of the server - looqas - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:Oh and regards power tripping, herding cats is no powertrip, re-writing faction statuses and figuring out diplomacies as well as answering every question regarding the faction, trying to ensure the faction remains active enouugh to avoid supsension, only after all this can I go to the XA and do it all again for another half of that faction, then I may get to play... I wouldn't call it a powertrip as I'm often fed up of both factions after doing all the damn work to make sure they are running smoothly.
I completely agree with what you said here. I've always though that running a faction is like shoveling manure all day long. It's a lot of work that goes behind the scenes before you can go on power-tripping. It's like an admin position in that regard.
Anyone ever made a really long post trying to think things through properly? Magnify that to tenfold and you'll be getting a good idea what it is just to push papers around to keep a faction running.
I'd like also to develop the notion Blodo said in his original post and categorize a bit. There a basically two kinds of people (and thus players). The players who want to entertain others by organizing events, coming up stuff to do, write stories, RP those stories in generally make some effort so that others can enjoy it as well. Then there are those that want to be entertained. They will gladly get all you can give them. And usually they'd like to have it right now. They are mainly concerned what do I get and why can't I get it right now.
We all need to get as well as give, but I see good role players be more prevalent in giving than taking.
I get a feeling that Disco was and still is mainly built on giving out of yourself. That's what role play basically is. Coming up with lines for other's enjoyment. You also get satisfaction of it but you provide it to others at the some time. Now I get the feeling that most people are concerned doing their own thing rather than doing other's thing.
And I see some of the indies wanting all the benefits of an established faction without giving anything in return. Whereas in a faction you are expected to give something in return. And faction leaders usually give a lot more to other people than they receive in return in form of respect or whatever.
It's pretty much ok if you find yourself to be the selfish player (aren't we all), but if the game wholly revolves around you and your needs and doing your thing and you feel like Obi-wan-is-holding-you-back-because-he's-jealous all the time by telling you can't fly that battleship then I'd love you to take a bit of time thinking why Obi-wan does not want you to fly the battleship.
And I'd like to comment on the starting from bottom approach a bit. One funny thing about respect is that it cannot be demanded, it has to be earned.
The division of the server - Praetyre - 07-11-2008
If they grant the existence of a unilaterally named military faction, they then grant the possibility of such a policy, and Fellow Hoodlum even said, in a PM reply to Jinx, that the RM policy was not disapproved.
So, protest to the admins, but like it or not, they've approved the current situation, and crying "powertrip" or "elitist" does not change this fact. I'm not saying the policy is good or bad, I'm saying that it's approved.
I'm well and truly sick and tired of this, done, and I leave you with this.
The division of the server - Tenacity - 07-11-2008
what i'd like to know is how these supposed 'unilateral' faction members are allowed to get away with their attacks on independents.
See, there's no possible way you could attack a rheinland military ID'd/tagged player without being OORP yourself unless that player was actively defying faction orders or acting OORP first. Your ID doesnt allow you to attack other lawfuls, yet it still happens.
This makes me want to make a rheinland military gunboat character just to see their reaction. Server rules protect the independent from being shot by his own faction unless he isnt RP'ing properly, and you could be sanctioned if you attempted to kill someone in that manner without reason.
The division of the server - Xing - 07-11-2008
I accept to obey faction laws in order to have a wide independence over my roleplay.
Is it that hard?
The division of the server - Tenacity - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:I accept to obey faction laws in order to have a wide independence over my roleplay.
Is it that hard?
exactly. You do things properly Xing, as do I on Aki.Kimura. If black squadron members need me to do something, I do it, as long as it's appropriate in-RP for a member of the order.
As long as someone is acting like a member of their (npc) faction -should- act, there's nothing wrong with being independent of the 'official' faction.
EDIT:
The problem arises when factions want to control things that they really dont have a right to control.
Examples:
1. The LN (prior known as SA) restrict access to alaska/zone 21. Now... they restrict access even to navy tagged/id'd players who are in-Rp with their characters. That's not acceptable - it's a case of one group of players trying to impose rules on another group simply for the purpose of control. There's absolutely no reason any navy or LSF tagged and Id'd player who is acting as a member of his respective faction should to be denied access from alaska/z21.
2. Omicron 85 and the 101st... Epyon restricts access to that system even from other outcasts until they ask permission to enter. Pardon, but it's the OUTCAST guard system, not the 101st guard system. There's no reason to deny access to outcast tagged and id'd players.