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+--- Thread: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. (/showthread.php?tid=103117)
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Omi - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:17 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Yes, the difference is who exactly you offend. If you ask me, it'd be better and simpler just not to offend anybody and use that tiny bit of energy and ingenuity required to work around that. We all do that in our civil lives without problems anyways, why is that such a big challenge on the internet?
People shouldn't be getting offended. It's all in roleplay, remember? It's not even like [B WORD GIRL DOG NOT SURE IF ALLOWED TO SAY IT] is that far up the "offensiveness scale".
Personally, I find it a little immersion breaking when a character who's meant to be rough, callous and uncaring has to go around either making up big flowery wordy insults to slag off his enemies and/or limit himself to nothing more "offensive" than things like "you damn murderer". I mean, I can see why swearing is strictly regulated, but at the same time...
Oh well, just so long as nobody starts sanctioning Mollys for saying "feck".
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Landers - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:08 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Can I "go on stage" and play a space nazi? No?
Uhm... nvm.
On topic, we shouldn't look at Disco like Call of Duty, where you're informed about your ancestors' sexual habits. I mean, come on. In role-play a few F-s, or female doges should not offend anyone as long as it's in RP. Even I used some words on my Unioner that /might/ offend people, nobody cared.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Jihadjoe - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:08 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Can I "go on stage" and play a space nazi? No?
Interesting you should say this... I have played a glaswegian neo-nazi skinhead on stage for a run of a few shows. Horrible character... Actually made me feel sick when I was learning the part and rehearsing it.
But despite that, I still played the character because it was required by the fiction we were creating.
You would be able to walk up on stage and play the space nazi character you refer to, if the people here (for example yourself) weren't so prone to assuming the character is the self.
When people such as yourself who cannot discern the difference between actor and character, (as you demonstrated earlier with your highly offensive comments about how the actor in question here is infact wishing to be an unpleasent person in real life) are around, they unfortunately drag everything down to their remarkably petty level.
In short, if people such as yourself were to leave, then we would be able to create ficticious representations of whatever we thought was artistically valid and relevant to the setting. Unfortunately, people like you ruin it.
Furthermore, saying "bitch" is hardly the holocaust.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Anaximander - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:24 PM)Omicega Wrote: People shouldn't be getting offended. It's all in roleplay, remember?
That's so easy to say. Any jews here shouldn't get offended when I put on my Rheinwehr fascist thing, it's just roleplay remember (yes yes, nazi-jew centered arguments are over-used).
We live in a world so big, with people so varied that we sometimes have to bite our tongue - even when we play a game where we roleplay being others. There are still limitations to where we can go with our roleplay, especially on a server where roleplay is just a thin veil covering what we really want as players - be it PvP or living the dream of being an internet tough guy.
If someone called me the "female dog" word on Disco, I'd be more offended than I would in other roleplay communities precisely because roleplay on Discovery is so thin and just an excuse for people to do their thing.
(08-10-2013, 12:25 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: When people such as yourself who cannot discern the difference between actor and character, (as you demonstrated earlier with your highly offensive comments about how the actor in question here is infact wishing to be an unpleasent person in real life) are around, they unfortunately drag everything down to their remarkably petty level.
See above. Roleplay on Disco is more often than not indicative of the nature of the player behind the character. Afterall it's the player choosing to play exactly that type of trash-talking character. You don't find any of my characters using offensive words, even when their actions and nature clearly is offensive to most. You don't NEED those words at all.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Lonely_Ghost - 08-10-2013
I agree with Jihadjoe.
It's not you sitting in a ship, it's character you play. So, if his role is to be badass dude, you should play that character as badass guy, so other would believe, that my character is indeed badass guy. And If MY CHARACTER says to Navy: "Come on me B****, I will rape you with my finger! " before opening fire, it's says my character, not me.
Would you say same thing, when police officer stops your car, when you driving, and asking to show your license and registration? Ofcrs no, or you will have lots of problems.
IMO, when people RPing his character as actor on scene, you can have great fun just from talking with him, without making any single shot. Yes, we can have very neutral RP, with no "bad words" with no offence, and be like a "nice guy", but it will be colorless RP, and boring interactions. Boring RP leading to PvP increase.
That is my opinion.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Anaximander - 08-10-2013
Sometimes I worry about the youth these days, do you never read good fiction?
Some of the greatest insults and dialogues, some of the most heinous characters and deeds in fiction have been portrayed without a single cuss word.
Do those words really make that much of a difference for you when you try to portray your character, are they *that* necessary to you, when they weren't in some of the best fiction written?
I'm not saying we should all be Booker Award winning writers and novelists, but at least use the imagination just a tiny bit, it's really not that hard.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Jihadjoe - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:36 PM)Anaximander Wrote: That's so easy to say. Any jews here shouldn't get offended when I put on my Rheinwehr fascist thing, it's just roleplay remember (yes yes, nazi-jew centered arguments are over-used).
We live in a world so big, with people so varied that we sometimes have to bite our tongue - even when we play a game where we roleplay being others. There are still limitations to where we can go with our roleplay, especially on a server where roleplay is just a thin veil covering what we really want as players - be it PvP or living the dream of being an internet tough guy.
<snip>
See above. Roleplay on Disco is more often than not indicative of the nature of the player behind the character. Afterall it's the player choosing to play exactly that type of trash-talking character.
It is only a thin veil for those who cannot seperate fiction from themselves and from others.
The issue on this server surrounding references to that period of history is a legal one. The server is hosted in Germany where such references are very carefully monitored, therefore your example is not one that I would consider using in this context. If the server was hosted elsewhere in the world, I would imagine that such references would be possible, provided they were dealing with the topic in a sensitive manner and not idolising or celebrating the behaviour or ideology.
The issue here that people such as yourself, who have shown the inability to keep character and self seperate, cannot discern the difference between a constructed fictional examination of an unpleasent thing, and the unpleasent thing itself.
It is worth noting that I don't object to the warning issued... I think the warning is fair. What I find extremely unfair is your judgement of the reasons the word bitch was used at all, which is not only incorrect, but also highly obnoxious and offensive to the player in question.
As you said, respect your fellow player (or actor), and do not automatically assume that because that character said a word you dislike, the player behind it must be in some way a lesser human. The character's insult may be ineloquent, but that does not mean the player is as well. For example, a player who is portraying a barely literate, poorly educated individual, would naturally endeavor to speak as such... It would be out of character to use elaborate intelectual insults in that situation, and saying something more akin to "god damned son of a bitch" would be more appropriate.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Anaximander - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 12:54 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: The issue on this server surrounding references to that period of history is a legal one. The server is hosted in Germany where such references are very carefully monitored, therefore your example is not one that I would consider using in this context.
Aye that is correct, I urge you to dig on step deeper and ask yourself why exactly that reference is illegal, what lies behind it and what we can learn from history and adopt in our daily lives. Is the lesson that solely jew/nazi slander is bad and everything else flies?
(08-10-2013, 12:54 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: The issue here that people such as yourself, who have shown the inability to keep character and self seperate, cannot discern the difference between a constructed fictional examination of an unpleasent thing, and the unpleasent thing itself.
You keep pulling that strawman out of the hat; it's not really true. More often than not I've got no clue what player is in front of me when I play this game because I have a habit of staying out of the skype-side of things. Much to my surprise you and I have actually flown and had fun together, and only later I've found out it was your character.
But yes, when I maim , kill or pirate someone for instance and they start with excessive "roleplay trash talk", I can't help but see that as a result of "player butthurt" - afterall who in their right mind would start whiny trash talks when they're on the verge of dying? You'd think a real person would prioritize differently.
(08-10-2013, 12:54 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: As you said, respect your fellow player (or actor), and do not automatically assume that because that character said a word you dislike, the player behind it must be the same.
That is true, and I might have come off a bit unfair. But since you stay on that topic, I find it interesting how said player even refuse to acknowledge how his words could be offensive, and that seems totally unrelated to his character.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Jihadjoe - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 01:01 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Aye that is correct, I urge you to dig on step deeper and ask yourself why exactly that reference is illegal, what lies behind it and what we can learn from history and adopt in our daily lives. Is the lesson that solely jew/nazi slander is bad and everything else flies?
See my edit in the post above. I believe that elsewhere in the world representations of that would be possible if artistically valid and sensitively approached, without glorifying or celebrating what was an absolutely awful thing for people to have done.
Strangely, this history blackout actually serves to draw attention to it, rather than the opposite, creating a taboo subject, rather than something which can be healthily discussed. Things become far less dangerous when discussed openly. A great many people are drawn towards that which is denied to them (even if it is denied to them with the best of intentions). Morbid fascination leads to some dangerous behaviour.
If you do not allow people to reflect upon the less than pleasent aspects of our history or behaviour as a species, how can we expect to learn from them?
(08-10-2013, 01:01 PM)Anaximander Wrote: You keep pulling that strawman out of the hat; it's not really true. More often than not I've got no clue what player is in front of me when I play this game because I have a habit of staying out of the skype-side of things.
I would suggest that the strawman I am using is only as grotesque as the manner in which you painted Korny's behaviour. Allow me to quote you and re-examine the post I first replied to.
(08-10-2013, 11:51 AM)Anaximander Wrote: It's because it's ever apparent that those who wish to RP using those words are the types that'd wish they had the cojones to act like that in real life but knowing full well they'd get served a tasty knuckle sandwich if they did. So they use the safe distance and the anonymity of the internet as their outlet instead. A pitiful display, really.
With this post, you chose to use a roundabout method of insulting the player in question. You made a series of steps which use your limited knowledge of the player's general attitude then push them to an offensive extreme using your own highly subjective opinions as a base. The favour in this instance was returned by myself. My aim was to get under your skin, in the same way yours way to get under Korny's, particularly with your final note of "A pityful display, really."
The fact you do not know Korny is not his problem. To take a negative view of something of which you are wholey ignorant is profoundly unfair.
Furthermore, it should not matter which player is infront of you, as the automatic assumption should be that the behaviour you witness is in character (unless demostrated otherwise).
(08-10-2013, 01:01 PM)Anaximander Wrote: That is true, and I might have come off a bit unfair. But since you stay on that topic, I find it interesting how said player even refuse to acknowledge how his words could be offensive, and that seems totally unrelated to his character.
You did come across as highly unfair. My understanding of Korny's words so far, is that he believes that it should not be offensive to another player within a fictional setting. The word in question is a mild swear at worst, used in a fictional context and not directed towards the player.
I can understand that position, even if I would advise being more careful where he directs the language in future. I would not suggest he cuts the word from the character's vocabulary, but instead that he uses it in a setting where the people can be trusted not to get their panties all bunched up over it.
RE: The Freelancer is E for everyone, that doesn't mean that DiscoveryGC should. - Anaximander - 08-10-2013
I like this post.
(08-10-2013, 01:19 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Strangely, this history blackout actually serves to draw attention to it, rather than the opposite, creating a taboo subject, rather than something which can be healthily discussed. Things become far less dangerous when discussed openly. A great many people are drawn towards that which is denied to them (even if it is denied to them with the best of intentions). Morbid fascination leads to some dangerous behaviour.
This is very true and also off-topic. But it's a lot more nuanced than that, for instance all Nazi references are illegal in Germany, but in Denmark where I'm from we have an almost religious belief in the freedom of speech, resulting in Nazi propaganda getting printed and published here and later distributed in Germany. We have some hard-line neo-nazi's here that can gather and march openly, and they at times spread their violence to surrounding countries (like it happened in Sweden a few years ago when Danish nazi's crashed an event). It's true that "putting a lid on it" is dangerous, but the other extreme is equally dangerous.
The bottom line is that if someone tells you they are offended by your words and actions, you should take that into account and behave accordingly, no if's, but's and why's. Take it like a grown ass man.
(08-10-2013, 01:19 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: I would suggest that the strawman I am using is only as grotesque as the manner in which you painted Korny's behaviour. Allow me to quote you and re-examine the post I first replied to.
I was indeed in quote and in thought addressing a general problem, rather than a specific player.
(08-10-2013, 01:19 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: The fact you do not know Korny is not his problem. To take a negative view of something of which you are wholey ignorant is profoundly unfair.
I take a negative view of the something and not the someone and I think that is very fair.
(08-10-2013, 01:19 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: I would not suggest he cuts the word from the character's vocabulary, but instead that he uses it in a setting where the people can be trusted not to get their panties all bunched up over it.
That's exactly it. You can use those words in a setting where you precisely know how they'll get weighed. For instance, my best mate is gay and I can call him lots of things (and he certainly calls other gays lots of names too), but that's just fine because we both know there's no harm intended. Was there the slightest shred of doubt whether or not I should really be using those words, I'd refrain from it and my life would be just as full and rich.