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+--- Thread: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? (/showthread.php?tid=105655)
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Aazalot - 10-08-2013
Well first of all, again a report of it was done by the Canaria news network and its something we intend to continuie with. However, you did see what happened but other then that you are not directly involved, so whats it to do with you how we continue on with that part of the Rp. When you need to be involved, you will be, same as how i wasnt involved with the BS in Omicron 74 apart from the times i was directly contacted. Anyhoo this has gone on long enough, end of the day, the Zoner ID wont be changed end of.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Sabru - 10-08-2013
Where do i even start?
On the topic of your wanted "changes",
the communal rage has already been expressed so i will say this......
You need ALL 3 official zoner factions support to push through any big changes to zoners. now lets count how many you have.....
OSI - Very clearly said a big NO.
Phoenix - hmm..... i'd say thats a big NO there as well.
TAZ - Well, most of us have a very intense dislike of you and your zoner "ideas" so thats a NO from us.
So thats 0 out of 3. give it up Tel.
Now, on to the Gallia rephack for all zoners....
(10-07-2013, 11:46 PM)Daedric Wrote: Gallia was rep hacked hostile to the Zoner ID because of the actions of me, TAZ, and a number of other veteran Zoner players and Gallic players.
Daedric already covered it. here's an idea. rather than QQ'ing, make the most of it. TAZ have. OSI have, they made their own agreements.
I will stop here to reflect on one quote.
(10-07-2013, 09:21 PM)Divine Wrote: Hey, I'm all for your "proposed changes". This will finally put Zoners in a position they'll have absolutely frakked themselves up and will fall into oblivion, whilst the Zoner groups sporting their own IDs won't be much affected by this.
If your changes went through, and divine is fairly correct here, most zoners would be royally screwed. I say most because TAZ and OSI would just continue as normal.
Now this would result in EVERY zoner hating you. on the bright side, the zoner lolcaps issue would be solved.
* Sabru has had his say.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Thyrzul - 10-08-2013
(10-07-2013, 11:22 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: ignoring my valid points doesn't make your statement any "clever" - Typical "know-it-all" - I do hate dogma.
Sounds like you... really...
(10-08-2013, 12:17 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: all of my anger is aimmed towards his characters
Haha, sure... 
Yes, right, two petty remarks, as I don't really have anything else to say here. I've been late to come here to dissect and rape your posts and failed logic, others have done that already. So I'm just here to watch how you and your own unique ideas about how Zoners should work are failing again, getting diminished by the more experienced and insightful members of the DiscoGC, but more importantly it's Zoner Community.
tl;dr - My work has been done before me, I'm just here to watch and chew on some popcorn.
Yes, right, two petty remarks, as I don't really have anything else to say here. I've been late to come here to dissect and rape your posts and failed logic, others have done that already. So I'm just here to watch how you and your own unique ideas about how Zoners should work are failing again, getting diminished by the more experienced and insightful members of the DiscoGC, but more importantly it's Zoner Community.
tl;dr - My work has been done before me, I'm just here to watch and chew on some popcorn.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Syrus - 10-08-2013
I have no idea what this is about to be honest and this all doesn't make any sense to me...
But the Zoners can not be represented by any single group. There are bigger groups, but mostly they are all very different people following a similar idea (living outside of house / lawful space - freedom from such). That's what makes them Zoners. Imagine them like those who loved living on the frontier, far from civilization. Everyone had their own reasons to do so, but the same idea: enjoy live far away from all that other stuff.
Now, in disco Zoners were turned into some almost militaristic powerhouse with allies and enemies. For me that doesn't make too much sense, I stopped playing my Zoner character and scrapped it after some time because people forced diplomatics on a very diverse group of people, where each and every individual can have pretty much "their own view on the world". Not to mention the cap-spam groups who's Zoner RP went out the window into space and beyond...And Gran Canaria. And non-SRP caps for them overall...
But heh. I liked the vanilla Zoners. I know the Freelancer ID is nowadays pretty much giving you all the chances a Zoner ID would have given you in vanilla if there was one. Thing is, Freelancer != Zoner RP-wise. For me it'd make sense for Zoners to only fly smaller ships, snubs, freighters, transports up to 3.6k, gunboats, maybe the Corvo. Everything else should be a bit more restricted, but maybe still available...
Of course if the Outcasts or Corsairs for example decided to kick out the Zoners...that'd change their reputation overall... It's all difficult and all though. Especially since the TAZ and OSI seem to have gone away from the "standard Zoners", and the normal Zoners now pretty much lacking factions who agreed on where to take the Zoners RP. Especially since those factions are very diverse and already far from the original Zoner's RP, doing their very own RP - which isn't wrong.
Blehbleh and stuff. Zoners are a difficult topic, my solution would only be to take them back to their roots and get rid of stuff that never made sense, like Gran Canaria (and Lanzarote, and replacing them with a single freeport or such) and O74...
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Thyrzul - 10-08-2013
I personally got no problem with the concept of Gran Canaria. Imagine it is walking the path all other newborn colonies did, except that it is yet to be claimed by any of the houses. My guess would be Bretonia to take it a few decades later, especially after the latest developments.
EDIT: Oh, and it has been quite an RP hub for several occasions already.
EDIT: Oh, and it has been quite an RP hub for several occasions already.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Eduard - 10-08-2013
As the faction leader of a zoner unofficial faction I would like to take liberty into expressing my opinions, and disagreement with the OP of this... exotic thread...
Before I begin though, I would like to emphasize the first inconvenience I found in the OP, more precisely: the fact that the zoners were addressed globally, which is the first mistake I found. Zoners are not united, and cannot be addressed to at an global scale, what applies to the zoners in Omicrons does not apply to the zoners of Taus, for example.
Now, back to the subject I want to address, first of all, the Op has mentioned that the Zoners should make some kind of return to the houses and cooperate with them ( or cooperate with lawful, houses corporations ). I would like to state that I believe that this idea wasn't is absent of any kind of calculation or insight, and here is why I believe this:
- Firstly, a quick study, or skim of the zoner lore and its objectives will quickly reveal that the reason for zoners to inhabit the border worlds is mainly because they wanted to escape the Houses, its politics, its apparent lack of liberty and whatever restrictions the Houses may have exuded ( or stuff that the Zoners didn't like ). Following the idea of the OP will only provide conflicts with the ideas of the Zoner lore, and with the way a zoner should be played
- Secondly, zoners are... heterogenous you could say. They are not homogenous, they are not affected by variables globally, only locally. A tau zoner will have no reason to ally with Rheinland or Liberty, the vice versa goes for an Omega zoner, and what house would pick an Omicron zoner?
- Thirdly, the OP stated that this approach should be done in order to provide the zoners a more lawful feel to them ( as far as I understood ), well, I sadly have to say, that it will be exactly the opposite. Once you side with a House, you will be branded as an unlawful, and even put on KOS by at least one other House. Imagine TAZ allying with Bretonia, how would Gallia react to this? Or Commonwealth allying with Gallia... Or OSI allying with Rheinland, how would Liberty like this? There is a flaw in here, and I hope it's obvious enough.
I must however note that it's one thing cooperating with a house, or a house faction ( corporation ) and an entirely other thing to enter a house for the mere reason of traversing it or getting supplies, just wanted to clear out any possible room for doubts
Re-reading, I notice mention of the Guild Core and that the Zoners should ally with them, well... sure, I'd encourage any zoner to ally with the Core and then gloat over their newly found friends to the entirety of Sirius. I am sure the Order, Corsairs, Outcasts, etc etc would enjoy it. Zoners cannot ally "openly" , in fact... zoners shouldn't make allies in the first place as it would move them further and further away from the safety of that gray border of neutrality they reside in.
Contracts, deals, propositions, some kind of mutual agreements and alliances... Sure... But there is a keyword in everything a zoner should do and that is "secrecy"
What I want to say, is that a zoner can deal with anything and everyone as long as it is able to maintain "secrecy" and deal with the consequences if caught, and not pounding its chest in pride and QQing once poop hits the fan
Also, I would like to inquire in what way would the Order be... "screwed" ?
Now, on a personal note, I would express some opinions of mine which have little to no relevance to what has been said in the OP:
- Zoner related threads of this kind make no sense at all. I am beginning to feel that the Community ( I abstain from being more precise than that ) is doing nothing but walking in circles, around the same problems, same inconveniences over and over again, believing that they are putting an end to the problem, but actually, afterall, it's just a walk in circles, with no purpose. I personally see no problems to zoners. Actually, the only problem I see to the Zoners are the players who do not make a proper incorporation of the Zoner lore, to say the least, and do not play a Zoner properly, but I believe this is not a reason of the shallow, open-ended lore which allows you such liberty, I think it's more of a problem of shipline which bestows the "delussioned" player with the balls to go wacko
Quote:and the normal Zoners now pretty much lacking factions who agreed on where to take the Zoners RP
Well, There are actually factions who exploited the zoner lore and RP. But indeed, every zoner faction has its own variant of it, and like you said, that is a good thing as it emphasizes the heterogenous, open-ended nature of the zoner lore, if used properly.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Trogdor - 10-09-2013
(10-08-2013, 01:14 PM)Ed- Wrote: [*]Quote:and the normal Zoners now pretty much lacking factions who agreed on where to take the Zoners RPWell, There are actually factions who exploited the zoner lore and RP. But indeed, every zoner faction has its own variant of it, and like you said, that is a good thing as it emphasizes the heterogenous, open-ended nature of the zoner lore, if used properly.
[/list]
The problem with this is that we don't have an open-ended ID. From an indy's perspective, one feels like one cannot do anything besides roleplay a transport (and to be frank, not everyone is creative enough for this, esp. without some foil to build off of), because there is no official faction to back them up.
Now, if the ID said I could freely choose my own actions and diplomacy, as long as I was backing it up with roleplay that justified said actions, that would be a different story. But unfortunately I know 10 people are going to jump down my throat and say 'well that leaves the ID open to too much abuse' and 'that makes you sound like sirius-wide police, and we don't have those here.'
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Eduard - 10-09-2013
(10-09-2013, 08:54 PM)Trogdor Wrote:(10-08-2013, 01:14 PM)Ed- Wrote: [*]Quote:and the normal Zoners now pretty much lacking factions who agreed on where to take the Zoners RPWell, There are actually factions who exploited the zoner lore and RP. But indeed, every zoner faction has its own variant of it, and like you said, that is a good thing as it emphasizes the heterogenous, open-ended nature of the zoner lore, if used properly.
[/list]
The problem with this is that we don't have an open-ended ID. From an indy's perspective, one feels like one cannot do anything besides roleplay a transport (and to be frank, not everyone is creative enough for this, esp. without some foil to build off of), because there is no official faction to back them up.
Now, if the ID said I could freely choose my own actions and diplomacy, as long as I was backing it up with roleplay that justified said actions, that would be a different story. But unfortunately I know 10 people are going to jump down my throat and say 'well that leaves the ID open to too much abuse' and 'that makes you sound like sirius-wide police, and we don't have those here.'
An indie zoner cannot roleplay anything else but a transport? I'd abstain to comment my disagreement on this statement bluntly, especially since, out of personal experience, I can provide endless counter examples and arguments. But yes, it's a pity that there are ones who cannot find more profound roleplay than that for such an exquisite ID that leaves so many opportunities for RP, diplomacy and such
Also, you can do your own actions and diplomacy, no one stops you. No one stopped the Obsidian Zoetic to openly ally with the Order and make ruckus with the Core. Nobody stopped the Commonwealth from trying to involve itself into Maltese stuff. Nobody stopped TAZ from... uum... from being TAZ ( Please excuse me, my temporary autonomous companions, for I am not cultured of your history )
What I want to say, is that a zoner can play open ended, pursue his own actions and diplomacy. It only needs to be weary of the consequences of said actions, and when they arrive, he needs to keep a firm chin and not QQ on forums and such stuff.
Sure though, you won't be seeing a zoner openly stating and proposing military alliances, that would be hypocritical. But there are endless other business/diplomatical proposition one can think of.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Trogdor - 10-09-2013
(10-09-2013, 09:06 PM)Ed- Wrote: An indie zoner cannot roleplay anything else but a transport? I'd abstain to comment my disagreement on this statement bluntly, especially since, out of personal experience, I can provide endless counter examples and arguments.That's... not really what I said... lol
Quote:Also, you can do your own actions and diplomacy, no one stops you. No one stopped the Obsidian Zoetic to openly ally with the Order and make ruckus with the Core. Nobody stopped the Commonwealth from trying to involve itself into Maltese stuff. Nobody stopped TAZ from... uum... from being TAZ ( Please excuse me, my temporary autonomous companions, for I am not cultured of your history )
Except our ID now says "Cannot ally with anyone".
Quote:What I want to say, is that a zoner can play open ended, pursue his own actions and diplomacy. It only needs to be weary of the consequences of said actions, and when they arrive, he needs to keep a firm chin and not QQ on forums and such stuff.And aside from defending other Zoners and Zoner stations, there is no mention of being able to fight anyone. Therefore anyone who wishes to pursue 'their own' diplomacy and RP is leaving themselves open for a sanction report.
Quote:Sure though, you won't be seeing a zoner openly stating and proposing military alliances, that would be hypocritical.How would that be hypocritical? If my character believes faction X to be a threat to the Zoners in general, or the Zoners in a particular area, or even just his own interests, it would seem logical that he would want to ally with faction Y, who is X's enemy.
This is especially true when faction X is already rephacked hostile to him. The rephack says, in big bold letters, this guy is your enemy and is trying to kill you.
If you or the ID say that's not valid, then it's not really open-ended roleplay.
RE: New Zoner Infocard | Conduct? - Zen_Mechanics - 10-09-2013
(10-09-2013, 09:45 PM)Trogdor Wrote:(10-09-2013, 09:06 PM)Ed- Wrote: An indie zoner cannot roleplay anything else but a transport? I'd abstain to comment my disagreement on this statement bluntly, especially since, out of personal experience, I can provide endless counter examples and arguments.That's... not really what I said... lol
Quote:Also, you can do your own actions and diplomacy, no one stops you. No one stopped the Obsidian Zoetic to openly ally with the Order and make ruckus with the Core. Nobody stopped the Commonwealth from trying to involve itself into Maltese stuff. Nobody stopped TAZ from... uum... from being TAZ ( Please excuse me, my temporary autonomous companions, for I am not cultured of your history )
Except our ID now says "Cannot ally with anyone".
Quote:What I want to say, is that a zoner can play open ended, pursue his own actions and diplomacy. It only needs to be weary of the consequences of said actions, and when they arrive, he needs to keep a firm chin and not QQ on forums and such stuff.And aside from defending other Zoners and Zoner stations, there is no mention of being able to fight anyone. Therefore anyone who wishes to pursue 'their own' diplomacy and RP is leaving themselves open for a sanction report.
Quote:Sure though, you won't be seeing a zoner openly stating and proposing military alliances, that would be hypocritical.How would that be hypocritical? If my character believes faction X to be a threat to the Zoners in general, or the Zoners in a particular area, or even just his own interests, it would seem logical that he would want to ally with faction Y, who is X's enemy.
This is especially true when faction X is already rephacked hostile to him. The rephack says, in big bold letters, this guy is your enemy and is trying to kill you.
If you or the ID say that's not valid, then it's not really open-ended roleplay.
+1 And I would add that even under these new "guidelines" the faction stil has loopholes to be exploited, thats to say - i can't shoot who i dislike for reasons a,b,c,d - Now I didnt invent that, its right there, unless theres a clergy who would want to explain it to me through "faith" - I can tell you for sure, on one hand they eliminated ally ( which I think is a good move, because zoners are allies only to themselves, and unlike in other "centuries" they are now more than capable of supporting themselves - on the other.. well they made it perfectly clear now that they cannot shoot anyone. The Old ID didnt suggested that, the new one does, unless im reading blind.