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+--- Thread: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? (/showthread.php?tid=117168)
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AceofSpades - 06-28-2014
What I hope for this situation is specifically not 'my (our) own' system. What we truly desire is the resolution and standardization of practices regarding documenting illegal commodities, so that a Player Owned Base can operate with a specific, acceptable RP. Here's why:
There have been (multiple) General Discussion topics regarding "Blackmarket POBs". Generally, the attitude we have sensed from the community is that most players -- including Police and other lawfuls, would enjoy seeing smuggling give rise to more activity. However, this is a conundrum in itself, because the very nature of smuggling is to avoid being caught -- to avoid interaction. Therefore, I thought it fitting that somebody finally do the all the work required to make such stations exist and operate cleanly. If you centralize a smuggling economy, and bring in traffic to the area, you will naturally create activity for Lawfuls and Hunters (as well as the smugglers).
Currently the Junkyard operates as an "Open Market" --RP Lore Here -- with a legal and completely developed (over 100 priced goods) export/import/manufacture economy , with the idea that behind the curtain there takes place underground Black Market business.
This is the whole package, the legal and illegal elements of what you would need to maintain a proper RP of a "legal base" that in fact acts also as a "smuggling hub".
To promote this idea further, we grant (free) docking rights to almost all of the independent Junkers currently in space. We extend (also free, always free) docking rights to Freelancers and occasional factions whom with we exchange business with as well. Not to mention that a large quantity of new incoming Pilots are noobs, whom we get started with basic ships.. and then help them with the necessary RP and interaction questions noobs have on the (now vastly) complex Disco server.
In every sense, we have attempted to create something that is the resounding opposite of the community's "Player Base Sterotype"-- a Player Bases that actually contribute significantly in a unique way to Role Play around them. I understand there are a few stations serving as a bypass for having Ore Miners on site, and that other stations exist to secure borders, but this is an entirely different (and unique) attempt altogether to try and create something this server lacks.
However. Experience has taught us that even an in-RP idea, such as having smuggled goods available on a station (that would obviously naturally not be sold by vendors to lawfuls/unknowns), does not hold water with everybody. This holds true with not just ours, but all member's ideas, as this community only outscoped in population by its differences of opinion. There is almost always someone who'd prefer things done THEIR way, and some will take to shooting versus the continuation of discussion. It is because of this fact that the idea of operating two of these stations as registered bases capable of remaining as in-RP smuggling stations seemed an implausible task to us in the current Roleplay environment. And it was for those reasons that we decided the best course of action would be to attempt to purchase (what we had originally thought was already) an Independent/Junker system, within which House Laws (and any Officers who disagreed with the concept of in-RP stations) would not hold any authority. It is in this setting that we thought we might be able to finally see our complete idea realized.
This.. is the totality of what we have seek to do with all this work. This is what we would like to contribute to the community. I truly believe that a station such as this could generate all kinds of activity-- not just for smugglers, but for lawfuls who wish to patrol the surrounding areas and start picking up drug runners left n' right. A simple "no fire zone", much like a Freeport, could be established within the immediate vicinity (~10k) of the stations. Once Pilots leave the local area with their goods, they would be fair game to pirates, police, and any other Pilots now drawn to the area..
We are willing, and committed, to continuing to do the work necessary to make this Role Play possible. It requires a lot of ongoing work, but we have already persevered long and hard (lol) to get to this point and even make such Bases a reality. I'm going to leave it the community at this point, to discuss the worth/value of such a concept, with the hope that support for this might be nearly universal, and that we can at least garner enough support to carry on RP in this matter.
PS. To summarize this concisely..
(06-28-2014, 05:37 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: What exactly do you really want, Ace? Just a map that says that it belongs to you? Or do you just not want to have to give the BAF/BPA access to your PoBs for them to remain "legal" ?What we want could be as simple as agreeing that "goods sold upon in-RP stations are 'made available' to Pilots only within proper RP"(this topic), or the community agreeing on something of the like, as to allow this Role-Play Concept at the very least to have an opportunity to impact the community. This would now likely be most easily facilitated by a community agreement/understanding that what ye are able to access, purchase, or investigate in-RP within a Player Base is indeed dictated by genuine Role Play.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Highland Laddie - 06-29-2014
Okay...so the long and short of it is you want to be able to store contraband on your POBs without getting in trouble with the BPA/BAF.
My first suggestion WOULD have been to NOT build PoBs in Bretonian contested space (or what was up UNTIL now actually Bretonian controlled space).
But, since that option is gone...let's move on to what we got:
we could either:
a) have all lawfuls simply "pretend" that the contraband goods that may or may not be on your stations are only being bought/sold on the black market, and thus out of view of the public eye (much how I imagine Black Market Munitions and such are sold on Detroit Station, or Slaves on Pittsburgh)
or
b) take your chances, do the smuggling, and hope you don't get caught.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Pel - 06-29-2014
Inverness is Gaian. The rest of you are interlopers.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AceofSpades - 06-29-2014
AGGGHHH *pulling hair out*.
(06-29-2014, 04:45 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Okay...so the long and short of it is you want to be able to store contraband on your POBs without getting in trouble with the BPA/BAF.No. That is not at all what I am discussing. This conversation (link to topic once again) has to do with the idea that
in-RP, and within all logical reason, there exists no vendor/dockmaster/etc who would inform and make available his "back room commodities" to Officers or Randoms.
I dont want to just do whatever the hell I want, just the opposite. I happen to think that the method of catching and enforcing smuggling law by simply docking and screenshotting inventory for a two minute "report" is about the laziest RP of all time, and is absolutely meta-gaming. For perspective, here's a real-life example describing almost this exact situation: Has anybody here seen the movie "My Idiot Brother"? The opening scene is him selling pot to a uniformed cop, who promptly arrests him, setting the point early that hes completely clueless and inept--to a comical degree. Now does anybody seriously think that a uniformed Officer who comes up to a vendor (at any regular station or POB) should have any success finding contraband.. unless the Dockmaster is a comically inept idiot?
Well unless anybody here agrees that we should observe Roleplay here at the comically inept level, then I dont see any justification in thinking this way. There is simply no way that in-RP, inspections of this sort could take place, so that concept needs to be discussed and resolved. Reducing this entire discussion down to "Aces, you just want it for you" is ridiculous and I wont have it anymore. This is an honest discussion regarding how we treat RP here, which quite frankly doesn't happen enough here anymore.
(06-29-2014, 04:45 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: a) have all lawfuls simply "pretend" that the contraband goods that may or may not be on your stations are only being bought/sold on the black market, and thus out of view of the public eye (much how I imagine Black Market Munitions and such are sold on Detroit Station, or Slaves on Pittsburgh)^ Exactly. Of course if by 'pretend' you mean 'roleplay', because that the exact concept you just described with part a).
or
b) take your chances, do the smuggling, and hope you don't get caught.
Regarding part b).. we welcome the BPA, BAF, and every other lawful we are gonna be generating activity for to take part in some law-enforcement. Why not get out there in space and actually take part in trying to engage the traders/smugglers going in and out of the system; instead of simply docking on a base, collecting two minutes of screenshots, and then spitting out a bunch of fines and charges under forum RP.. At least get your Cop into space and -catch- someone..,
..or start pirating them, or even join them! Hell I dont care, just get out there and interact with people instead of just shutting them down through paperwork. What's the point otherwise, most of us already have jobs doing mindless paperwork that occupies too much of our time.
All I'm asking is that people get out and actually play the game, and use some gawddamn common sense regarding RP inspections.
Such a simple discussion about realistic Roleplay is somehow being made out to seem as if were a request for total anarchy.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Highland Laddie - 06-29-2014
No need to start blaspheming.
The fact of the matter is this...you DO want to be able to store Contraband on a base without getting in trouble for it. So...let's not say you don't. You're even going so far as to want to CONTROL AN ENTIRE SYSTEM so that you don't have to put up with snooping cops. That's not the right approach, imo.
Want you want specifically is the ability to roleplay it as not being evident to police officers who dock on your base and see it.
I would personally find that completely acceptable, as I pointed out that I do it already, as well as any lawful who has ever docked on Planet Pittsburg. It would help if there could be some Admin or rule clarity on the issue, though.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AceofSpades - 06-29-2014
Look, I apologize for being somewhat straightforward, however..
(06-29-2014, 06:06 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: The fact of the matter is this...you DO want to be able to store Contraband on a base without getting in trouble for it. So...let's not say you don't. You're even going so far as to want to CONTROL AN ENTIRE SYSTEM so that you don't have to put up with snooping cops. That's not the right approach, imo.
(06-28-2014, 11:11 PM)AceofSpades Wrote: ..the idea of operating two of these stations as registered bases capable of remaining as in-RP smuggling stations seemed an implausible task to us in the current Roleplay environment... And it was for those reasons that we decided the best course of action would be to attempt to purchase.
..i'm sorry.. It is difficult to remain perfectly composed when we are consistently having to repeat and restate (what we consider to be) a very clearly-defined course of action. We have been working at this for a very long while, and we are working hard to make clear all of our ideas and intentions so that people can understand and discuss this. However we are met frequently with an unwillingness for communication (or outright disrespect by specific persons due to unrelated relationships and history), and yet seem to be the ones handily disregarded as 'out for ourselves'. It would have been far more simple to do what many Pilots here do, and simply flip the bird to people when they disagree with you, instead of initiating... and fighting... struggling.. to keep productive conversation going and involve others in it. I would not willfully discuss our intentions in such complete detail if I did not honestly seek to reach a constructive conclusion via open communication with other members of the community.
(06-29-2014, 06:06 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Want you want specifically is the ability to roleplay it as not being evident to police officers who dock on your base and see it.^ Agreed. We think it should be acceptable as well, however that is not currently a community-wide agreement despite perhaps being the prevailing attitude, and so we are pushing for that clarity or resolution. Please!
I would personally find that completely acceptable, as I pointed out that I do it already, as well as any lawful who has ever docked on Planet Pittsburg. It would help if there could be some Admin or rule clarity on the issue, though.
That's all this is, and we're trying to do this now so that it is resolved officially, instead of simply doing as we please first and then addressing the discussion only when problems arise later due to differing interpretations of the rule cause misunderstandings.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AlphaWolf215 - 06-29-2014
As a member of the Bretonian War Cabinet, I will explain some of the reasons we WON'T allow you to control Inverness, as Junkers, in any way, shape or form.
The first reason, is that Bretonia cannot afford to lose a system. RP wise, BPA can make patrols out there, as it's their job to police a system. Their main job is not to fight a war. Inverness has untapped resources (namely the planet) that they would desperately use. (All we need is a planetform group to start terraforming.. Hmmm..?)
The second most prominent problem for me is that you guys have been causing Bretonia problems/hassle for a while now over the POB problems and what not relating to that. Why the hell would Bretonia trust you to look after it's system when you couldn't even follow it's laws? I certainly wouldn't be happy entrusting you with a system. I'd be happier giving it specifically to a Bretonian faction (Bowex, BMM, Gateway, possibly BIS..?). If your going to be a protectorate, you need to be trusted. Currently, you are not.
Now, I have skipped a few pages. If any other points need clarity, I am happy to assist.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Pel - 06-29-2014
Too much focus on rules, dudes.
Go join the BAF if you want rules.
Junkers are opportunists, middlemen, fencers and con men. Just do that.
Inverness is in a region of space that is poorly governed and where the lines are poorly drawn. Just revel in that.
Get away with what you can get away with and do it smart.
Get back beneath the radar and do your thing. Stop waving a banner around like a shipping company.
Stop trying to protect your assets. Stop thinking about the investment of time and effort.
Do you want Poole or do you want Inverness? Inverness is exactly what all those other vanilla Junker bases try to be-- a neutral place, tucked away from the authorities, where most of the time business can take place unnoticed, but occasionally the 5-0 blunders by. Except Inverness does it so much better. It really is tucked away. Its "secretness" is not feigned. Very little traffic goes through it except for some very express purpose and the government and po-po can make whatever claims they like, but they can't back them up. Not in the long run.
The nature of things is that this can never be resolved.
Claim this place for yourself in your own mind and just play.
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - AceofSpades - 06-29-2014
(06-29-2014, 07:28 AM)AlphaWolf215 Wrote: Now, I have skipped a few pages. If any other points need clarity, I am happy to assist.Sure, i appreciate those willing to bring an opinion to a proposal even if they aren't willing to read it fully.
(06-29-2014, 07:28 AM)AlphaWolf215 Wrote: The first reason, is that Bretonia cannot afford to lose a system. RP wise, BPA can make patrols out there, as it's their job to police a system. Their main job is not to fight a war. Inverness has untapped resources (namely the planet) that they would desperately use. (All we need is a planetform group to start terraforming.. Hmmm..?)Yes, not only would the Bretonian Police (who likely wouldnt prioritize patrolling independent borderworlds over defending an attack within the Capital system) have the time to patrol Inverness. Also during a massively losing war it seems highly unlikely there'd be that kind of time, patrols effective enough, and merchant shipping to complete a bold strategy of colonizing and mining for resources in faraway Inverness. That would be considered a big strategic gamble, and could become impossible one if Bretonia does lose another system, as it'd likely be a contested one such as Newcastle.
(06-29-2014, 07:28 AM)AlphaWolf215 Wrote: The second most prominent problem for me is that you guys have been causing Bretonia problems/hassle for a while now over the POB problems and what not relating to that. Why the hell would Bretonia trust you to look after it's system when you couldn't even follow it's laws? I certainly wouldn't be happy entrusting you with a system. I'd be happier giving it specifically to a Bretonian faction (Bowex, BMM, Gateway, possibly BIS..?). If your going to be a protectorate, you need to be trusted. Currently, you are not.Yes.. well those last few pages have consisted of discussion regarding the value of Junkers being able to operate in-RP in the area. Mostly regarding the use of the POB stations.
(06-29-2014, 06:06 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Want you want specifically is the ability to roleplay it as not being evident to police officers who dock on your base and see it.That is the discussion we are seeking, the reason for which came out of:
I would personally find that completely acceptable, as I pointed out that I do it already, as well as any lawful who has ever docked on Planet Pittsburg. It would help if there could be some Admin or rule clarity on the issue, though.
(06-29-2014, 06:24 AM)AceofSpades Wrote: ..[at the time] the idea of operating two of these stations as registered bases capable of remaining as in-RP smuggling stations seemed an implausible task to us in the current Roleplay environment... And it was for those reasons that we decided the best course of action would be to attempt to purchase [of Inverness].
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Ah Pel I do agree with this here:
(06-29-2014, 07:38 AM)Pel Wrote: Too much focus on rules, dudes.We are looking to resolve a single instance regarding the in-RP capability to act like the proper Junkers, we are trying to confirm this:
Go join the BAF if you want rules.
Junkers are opportunists, middlemen, fencers and con men. Just do that.
Inverness is in a region of space that is poorly governed and where the lines are poorly drawn. Just revel in that.
Get away with what you can get away with and do it smart.
Get back beneath the radar and do your thing. Stop waving a banner around like a shipping company.
Stop trying to protect your assets. Stop thinking about the investment of time and effort.
Do you want Poole or do you want Inverness? Inverness is exactly what all those other vanilla Junker bases try to be-- a neutral place, tucked away from the authorities, where most of the time business can take place unnoticed, but occasionally the 5-0 blunders by. Except Inverness does it so much better. It really is tucked away. Its "secretness" is not feigned. Very little traffic goes through it except for some very express purpose and the government and po-po can make whatever claims they like, but they can't back them up. Not in the long run.
The nature of things is that this can never be resolved.
Claim this place for yourself in your own mind and just play.
(06-29-2014, 05:28 AM)AceofSpades Wrote: in-RP, there exists no vendor/dockmaster/etc who would inform and make available his "back room commodities" to Officers or Randoms.[/b]
(06-29-2014, 06:06 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Want you want specifically is the ability to roleplay it as not being evident to police officers who dock on your base and see it.as rational RP. Allowing our stations to operate an in-RP legal (and veritable) import, export, and manufacturing business, as well as an 'underground' black market.
I would personally find that completely acceptable..
RE: Can we please have some clarity in Inverness? - Marcus - 06-29-2014
(06-28-2014, 11:11 PM)AceofSpades Wrote: allow this Role-Play Concept at the very least to have an opportunity to impact the community.[/b][/i] This would now likely be most easily facilitated by a community agreement/understanding that what ye are able to access, purchase, or investigate in-RP within a Player Base is indeed dictated by genuine Role Play.This as I understand it is the root of the discussion. A police officer docks, SS, and reports any illegal goods. Now I do agree with you in that it would be extermely unlikely that someone would go up to a police officer and say "Psst buddy, you want an artifact?". The police naturally do more then lean over the counter, searches can also be made. Which perhaps should include some additonal form of forum RP to subtitute the lack of ingame RP.
Also of course the police are very much aware that the low lifes of the world don't tell you straight up about their criminal behaviour, which is why things like plain clothes officers and snitchs were invented. The BPA employes these things just as readily, I have a untagged ship that I have succesfully used for undercover work as well as hiring various players to collect information or tail ships. The dockmaster as you refer to could easily believe someone to be if the trustable untrustworthly type and get caught that way by undercover officers or hired help. Would it be more acceptable if it had been a untagged ship that had taken the SS? Or a paided off smuggler?
You are displaying these items openly in the sell menu where anyone can see them. If you truely want to keep it hidden then prehaps a system of where you set these items to sell only when you know there's a trusted buyer around, just like any good dockmaster would put the specials in a hidden place all the time rather then put them away for trouble.
(06-29-2014, 05:28 AM)AceofSpades Wrote: Regarding part b).. we welcome the BPA, BAF, and every other lawful we are gonna be generating activity for to take part in some law-enforcement. Why not get out there in space and actually take part in trying to engage the traders/smugglers going in and out of the system; instead of simply docking on a base, collecting two minutes of screenshots, and then spitting out a bunch of fines and charges under forum RP.. At least get your Cop into space and -catch- someone..,I'm not entirely sure of your background of experience in disco but I get the impression that prehaps police work hasn't been among them. Police factions tend to be at the lower end of activity and number of players. This is not because there is less to do, that's the opposite rather, but because most players can't handle it particularly well. There are nummerous reasons that I deleted because I went on...But my point because that we do catch people in space regularly but that doesn't mean we ignore the easy ones because it's RP level is low. The 'mindless' paperwork as you put it is samething that the BPA manages for most of Bretonia. Scaning and handling out fines is a regular thing for us, along with licenses and base registeration, so we don't go about making every case the raid of a lifetime. In the BPA there's a suggestion that I pass around once players get a handle on things; If they make it interesting then let them go. I've let whole loads of gaian wildlife pass because the smuggler spun a tale that was basicly, fascinating. If you find a creative solution then we are more likely to pay more attention to it then feel like it is another piece of mindless paperwork.
Most 'smugglers' ingame arn't interested in Rp, they run, whine and make it misery with the same grace of a 5 year old. It's up to you to identify yourself as different, how you act will judge what catagory a BPA will put you under.
This hasn't been entirely about the topic of this thread but I felt it best to address those point in the same thread they were made. My suggestions in relation to RP can be applied to the Inverness situation just as easily.