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+--- Thread: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields (/showthread.php?tid=128512)
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Geolog - 04-16-2015
I will make just one more post here.
People probably don't remember F1 pirating but I do. It went like this. Empty Omega-7... 2 Kruger miners and 1 bomber log in and go to mine. 5 minutes later, about the time taken to reach the mining field and start mining 3 Corsair cruisers or 3 Hessian cruisers (or gbs, or whatever) log in. ''Hello''... ''Show me the money or die''. Krugers -> ''No''. Pirates -> PEW = Miners dead... I don't need to remind people of [RW] or something or other groups who had fleet of ships to switch to when dead. Sometimes we paid. This went every day for a long time...
Actions and counter-actions. That's how things work everywhere. Both in RL and in the game.
Kruger builds a base, it attracts people to join the faction because there are no more pirate hordes abusing F1 in field to kill the faction. Faction prospers. Finally puled out from the mud. Faction still gets pirated in every system and every day by everyone. Miners still get pirated in Koeln where there is no POB. All transports fly CAU8 because of that. Escort is necessary in every convoy.
That thing with Kruger was when it was unofficial and only having a few players.
About so called activity hubs. How is pirating a few miners for a few or more millions and all that lasting a few minutes a great activity? I did this miner pirating my self. It usually goes like taking a few mills or killing a miner and that's that. Not fun at all. Waiting on the trade lane is more fun. But I don't see people doing that anymore.
Linking POBs in mining fields and F1ing pirates is not a mistake. They are very closely related in some cases. One was just mentioned up there ^
Now feel free to move all bases from mining fields, or move all mining fields. Yes do it. I will support you now. And in a few weeks or months when F1 pirating becomes popular again and not like 1-2 (btw that's not and accurate number) I will come back here and spit 3 days long until my mouth dry out and then say ''I told you so.''
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Lythrilux - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:11 PM)Yassin Wrote: Having guys build and supply a base, and mining there regularly, increases the chances of you encountering people, and of people encountering each other there. Like, massively. There are more types of encounters than "money or blue" you know.But PvP and Money are both easily and arguably the two greatest building blocks to making activity and interactions on the server. Look at the faction activity list. Their primary goals either revolve around money making, shoot something, piracy or all three.
(04-16-2015, 10:11 PM)Yassin Wrote: The only chance it doesn't raise is of you getting blues and playing emperor of the universe with your 3-4 leet kiddy friends in exactly that spot. It would even still raise your chance of getting your blues if you catch people shipping ore from the POB to a sell point. More than ruining the efforts of 10 people and making them leave the server would anyhow.That doesn't justify the existence of a POB in a mining field. I also like how you instantly assume that in a piracy encounter I'd only go for blues. JM wouldn't be where it is if that's how we operated.
Honestly if after a piracy encounter in a mining field 10 players would feel so triggered and psychologically damaged that they'd need to leave the server, then that's pretty sad. It's a game and paying the pirate really isn't that detrimental if you're in a mining field.
If you really want to insist that that's a possibility, then how about I propose to you about the pirate players who may leave the server after being frustrated with how 'unfair' they feel piracy is, due to things like POBs in mining fields?
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Yassin - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:34 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: But PvP and Money are both easily and arguably the two greatest building blocks to making activity and interactions on the server. Look at the faction activity list. Their primary goals either revolve around money making, shoot something, piracy or all three.
Just because most people enjoy pvp doesn't mean that there is no place in Sirius where you don't risk being blown up, but you can just talk and RP. They guys who mine at the base will still have to run the risk of being blown up when they trade the ore to far away systems to get the money.
(04-16-2015, 10:34 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: That doesn't justify the existence of a POB in a mining field.Yes it does.
(04-16-2015, 10:34 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: I also like how you instantly assume that in a piracy encounter I'd only go for blues. JM wouldn't be where it is if that's how we operated.Well, the reason that you are whining here is because you aren't getting any blues. You also said that you'd take on a battle ship that you can kill, but not a POB that you cant. You're the one justifying your side with your desire to get blues.
You can unleash your brilliant pirate RP unto their minds whether there is a POB nearby or not.
(04-16-2015, 10:34 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Honestly if after a piracy encounter in a mining field 10 players would feel so triggered and psychologically damaged that they'd need to leave the server, then that's pretty sad. It's a game and paying the pirate really isn't that detrimental if you're in a mining field.Not psychological damaged, but why would they stay on a server where you are lured to play with the possibility to do something, being promised fair treatment and all, and right after you built it, your stuff gets taken away because some b!tch whined about how he cant kill you at his leisure anymore.
(04-16-2015, 10:34 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: If you really want to insist that that's a possibility, then how about I propose to you about the pirate players who may leave the server after being frustrated with how 'unfair' they feel piracy is, due to things like POBs in mining fields?I wouldn't miss them much. Especially if they're too dumb to understand that they can still pirate the guys if they just try it on the way to the ore sell point and not at the mining field. Wouldn't miss you much either, tbh.
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Mao - 04-16-2015
Wow, Lyth, I like how you're extracting only the points that you're having a counter argument for. I should learn to do that too.
Quote:the other player has absolutely no means of a counter to it.
Try this:
1. Pay the owners of a POB (that made money to upgrade their modules by grinding credits and resources for their POB) and buy a Cloaking Device.
2. Use the cloaking device and go to a mining field that you know (not from the player list - like you do on your JM| lol).
3. Fire on the base to activate its shield and block docking.
4. Say "Surprise motherfraker!" while doing that and hide behind an asteroid while the base tries to mine it to get to you.
5. RP with your target.
But you're right, that's too hard for the pirates and for their pirate candy universe. Damn it! I'm sorry, you're right. There's no easy way to counter the POBs.
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Vycos - 04-16-2015
So pirates QQ about the fact that POBs are on mine fields and it takes them more effort to pirate a miner.
That i agree with it, they are right. Its really exploiting in a sence to mine from a quickdock, or even super close to a base.
But out of all the arguments in the mather folks fail to realize the root cause of the issue.
Why POBs are built like that besides the convinience factor.
Simple. When you have players camping the playerlist and show up 2-5min after you entered the system, pirate you. Than you leave for couple of hours to do something else, than go back to see the same pirate in about 2-5min showing up is... well down right discouraging, and frustrating. Thats not RP, thats called miner farmin. And this is likely what contributed greatly to the POB placement.
In my opinion the solution is simple.
Have a server rule that enforces a sensible distance from a mining field of a base. 20-30k.
Remove/mask the system location from the player list. And have a very striktly governed Sirius wide chat.
What that will do:
Pirates would actually have to patrol mining fields, just like a law enforcment player have to patrol their field. And if they are in the right place at the right time after their diligent efforts, they may reap their rewards, since shooting down a miner if he is not complying takes little to no effort, given that they have a fair distance to cover should they chose to make a run for it.
That my friends is called cat and mouse, and thrill of the hunt, and suspense. Because the miner does not know either that there is a pirate in the system...
You may argue that it would decrease interaction and thats true, unless you can effectively communicate real time with players And organize mining operations, look for escorts, organize encounters.
Common camping the play list is a cheap substitute for declaring an attack on Rheinland by a bunch of LNS noobs and be able to do this real time and attract people to the encounter, than you may RP the crap out of one and other. You get the point right? We all want to interact and it could bring the community closer too.
And the good old mining fields are stationary, a pirate can do some patrols and look for miners, that would even out the chances for the lone miners. And trade routes are well know, so pirates can still hunt they pray there, not farm it. Thats no bueno.
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Lythrilux - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:45 PM)Yassin Wrote: Just because most people enjoy pvp doesn't mean that there is no place in Sirius where you don't risk being blown up, but you can just talk and RP. They guys who mine at the base will still have to run the risk of being blown up when they trade the ore to far away systems to get the money.They could, y'know, roleplay their way out of a piracy encounter. Also nothing stops these miners from mining, filling up the base and then logging straight off by the way. They still void interactions with the assistance of the POB.
(04-16-2015, 10:45 PM)Yassin Wrote: Yes it does.Back up what you've said. You can't justify a poison without a cure.
(04-16-2015, 10:45 PM)Yassin Wrote: Well, the reason that you are whining here is because you aren't getting any blues. You also said that you'd take on a battle ship that you can kill, but not a POB that you cant. You're the one justifying your side with your desire to get blues.I enjoy pirating for credits or cargo. I don't trade, I make money via piracy.
You can unleash your brilliant pirate RP unto their minds whether there is a POB nearby or not.
Also what? Are you seriously implying that because I'd be up for killing a battleship and not a POB (that as I stated is a horribly boring task that takes hours to complete and requires many people to waste their lives sieging it) that it means I'd be hungrily looking for blues from a miner as well? Your logic makes no sense. Equally on the other side of the coin you'd be implying that because I'd be up for NOT pirating the trader, I'd happily sit still and let a battleship blow me up and not act in self-defense.
(04-16-2015, 10:45 PM)Yassin Wrote: Not psychological damaged, but why would they stay on a server where you are lured to play with the possibility to do something, being promised fair treatment and all, and right after you built it, your stuff gets taken away because some b!tch whined about how he cant kill you at his leisure anymore.Quoting myself from earlier on "just because your POB is no longer in a mining field doesn't make it useless". Following on from that, all it does is make it less detrimental to server gameplay and more beneficial to the server as a whole. And yet again, you're instantly making the assumption that a pirate will always want to claim blues from a trader. Stop jumping to conclusions and stop making one-sided judgements. Pirates who go blue hunting get sanctioned. And if you want to talk fair treatment and the possibility to do something, what about pirates? They're promised that they can get involved in piracy, but wait! These things called POBs serve as the unbeatable wall that completely prevents them from pirating in mining fields and gives their piracy targets an unfair advantage that has no counter.
(04-16-2015, 10:45 PM)Yassin Wrote: I wouldn't miss them much. Especially if they're too dumb to understand that they can still pirate the guys if they just try it on the way to the ore sell point and not at the mining field. Wouldn't miss you much either, tbh.Yep, you're one-sided and nothing else. Arguing with you is pointless, although I wouldn't mind savoring it regardless. You've also given me a good excuse to use my favorite webm.
[webm]http://webmup.com/iz0aa/vid.webm[/webm]
You talk about fair treatment of players across the server but you argue only for the benefit of one group and discriminate against the other. Get banned again.
(04-16-2015, 10:55 PM)Mao Wrote: 1. Pay the owners of a POB (that made money to upgrade their modules by grinding credits and resources for their POB) and buy a Cloaking Device.You forgot one:
2. Use the cloaking device and go to a mining field that you know (not from the player list - like you do on your JM| lol).
3. Fire on the base to activate its shield and block docking.
4. Say "Surprise motherfraker!" while doing that and hide behind an asteroid while the base tries to mine it to get to you.
5. RP with your target.
6. Get destroyed by 9999999 weapons platforms.
Point number 4 doesn't work as you can't be stationary during the piracy encounter. If the trader moves, you'll have to move too and this will expose you to the platforms. Sure, you can roleplay with your target, but if they're not really in any real danger why the heck are they going to pay you?
Actually Mao, what am I saying? Given that you're affiliated with one of these POBs, you've probably set yourself to friendly on the bases diplomacy list, so that it won't shoot you.
Statements like that about JM aren't nice Mao. Especially if Skype tells me you're a hypocrite.
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Binski - 04-17-2015
I've done quite a bit of pirating in ore fields, and although I never bothered complain, I must agree with the OP that POB's in very close proximity to resource extraction points kill balance, as in, removes it completely and make piracy in such places almost pointless.
Last year when POB's were turned off temporarily I noticed the new connection from Tau-37 to Nagano and quickly realized the system was great for getting high valued ore (as an alternative to Tau-23) and so also good for piracy opportunities. When POB's were turned back on, Shiojiri was a fair bit above the ore field. That didn't tick me off, it was about 20k (if i remember correctly) above and still served its purpose. It could store ore and also serve as shelter, but to ships not currently engaged in mining.
After it was moved upon request, piracy at that ore field became far more difficult. I've used a cloak the entire time. Also at around that time the RP requirement for 'attacking' bases came in, so I dropped a post to be fair about my intentions. As previously described, I do fly in cloaked, drop within close enough range to CD and raise its shield for obvious reasons.
Problem one is, the weapons platforms are still good enough for the trader to hide behind, making a successful attack almost impossible, even if the ship can't dock. Although it feels good to launch a successful 'surprise' attack, even if just being able to harass your opponent, it seems fruitless since the trader can basically laugh at you. Maybe its not so bad if you're in pairs, but as a lone pirate, you're lucky to survive the initial CD. Before cloak times were severely reduced, I would try to linger and see if the trader would fill up, or buy at the base, and try to wait until they departed to make the attack. This worked some of the time, but not always. Now, in the end, it seems pointless to try to get in there to attack miners or transports there because of the base. To me, if they want to watch the list and run when they see me on there, its not so bad if they have to run 15-20k to get to safety, at least the POB lets them have storage and etc which is a step up from an NPC base. But most miners can dock and log before you even get close to the place and are more than happy to wait a pirate out.
Long short of it, the base's presence makes me not even bother. In a way i know that that's a good thing for the lawfuls who seek to secure the area, but at the same time, this being a game, deters me as a player from playing because it seems rather pointless in advance. I know there's pros and cons but a bit of space there wouldn't hurt to counter other oorp factors that work against pirates.
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Mao - 04-17-2015
(04-16-2015, 11:13 PM)Lythrilux Wrote:Where can a miner move if the base is blocked? He'll try to move away from the base and its guns? I don't think so. He'll wait there and either pay you or try to defend itself. If it comes down to a fight, you can dodge the turrets and finally kill the miner.(04-16-2015, 10:55 PM)Mao Wrote: 1. Pay the owners of a POB (that made money to upgrade their modules by grinding credits and resources for their POB) and buy a Cloaking Device.You forgot one:
2. Use the cloaking device and go to a mining field that you know (not from the player list - like you do on your JM| lol).
3. Fire on the base to activate its shield and block docking.
4. Say "Surprise motherfraker!" while doing that and hide behind an asteroid while the base tries to mine it to get to you.
5. RP with your target.
6. Get destroyed by 9999999 weapons platforms.
Point number 4 doesn't work as you can't be stationary during the piracy encounter. If the trader moves, you'll have to move too and this will expose you to the platforms. Sure, you can roleplay with your target, but if they're not really in any real danger why the heck are they going to pay you?
Actually Mao, what am I saying? Given that you're affiliated with one of these POBs, you've probably set yourself to friendly on the bases diplomacy list, so that it won't shoot you.
Statements like that about JM aren't nice Mao. Especially if Skype tells me you're a hypocrite.
Yes, I'm Samura|. Duh... Shiojiri is on the list and it's my best money grinding facility in the game. Guess what. I'm grinding money using it. I use the money for my other ships that produce activity. I'm ruining gameplay, right?
I'm also on the other side of the fence with Fortitudine sitting at 15k max from Holmfirth (a gaian base if you didn't know). I dislike that faction operating so close to one of their major enemies but it's nothing we can do about it. I've started to ignore them.
As for JM|, that's for a different topic and I'm not going to discuss it without having gathered enough evidence for a sanction. I'm a hypocrite if your Skype contains people like certain mercs or various PvPwhores that were denied their blues once
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Lythrilux - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 09:28 AM)Mao Wrote: Where can a miner move if the base is blocked? He'll try to move away from the base and its guns? I don't think so. He'll wait there and either pay you or try to defend itself.Exactly, he'll stay within range of the guns which is about 4 kilometers.
(04-17-2015, 09:28 AM)Mao Wrote: If it comes down to a fight, you can dodge the turrets and finally kill the miner.Considering the platforms tend to be closer to the POB and any sane Miner hugs the POB/Platforms, I'm pretty sure you're talking out of your bottom here. Have you even factored in if the Miner tries to defend himself, without the POBs assistance? Ever gone up against a turret steering ship with dulzians?
(04-17-2015, 09:28 AM)Mao Wrote: Yes, I'm Samura|. Duh... Shiojiri is on the list and it's my best money grinding facility in the game. Guess what. I'm grinding money using it. I use the money for my other ships that produce activity. I'm ruining gameplay, right?Yes, yes you are. "I", "my", "I'm". It's all about you, isn't it? You don't have to give a toss about the gameplay on the other side of the coin, as long as at the end of the day you can still keep lining your greedy pockets.
(04-17-2015, 09:28 AM)Mao Wrote: I'm also on the other side of the fence with Fortitudine sitting at 15k max from Holmfirth (a gaian base if you didn't know). I dislike that faction operating so close to one of their major enemies but it's nothing we can do about it. I've started to ignore them.Exactly. That mining field was supposed to have risk and an element of danger because Holmfirth was in the field. This would create activity and encounters. The POB completely removes that possibility however.
(04-17-2015, 09:28 AM)Mao Wrote: As for JM|, that's for a different topic and I'm not going to discuss it without having gathered enough evidence for a sanction. I'm a hypocrite if your Skype contains people like certain mercs or various PvPwhores that were denied their blues onceKeep gathering, because you're not going to find any. I don't think my skype friends list is irrelevant as I was referring to actual quotes by yourself. but whatever.
RE: Move PoBs from the Mining Fields - Mao - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Exactly, he'll stay within range of the guns which is about 4 kilometers.In an asteroid field.
(04-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Considering the platforms tend to be closer to the POB and any sane Miner hugs the POB/Platforms, I'm pretty sure you're talking out of your bottom here. Have you even factored in if the Miner tries to defend himself, without the POBs assistance? Ever gone up against a turret steering ship with dulzians?All I know is that I was able to take out a BWT, a Hegemon and an Akegata while under fire from a hostile POBs. Not all at once, different encounters. Of course I was also destroyed many times by my victims, by the POBs defences or by their escorts.
(04-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Yes, yes you are. "I", "my", "I'm". It's all about you, isn't it? You don't have to give a toss about the gameplay on the other side of the coin, as long as at the end of the day you can still keep lining your greedy pockets.Of course it's about me when I'm using myself as an example. I'm have ships and characters on both sides of this argument but I don't think balance should lean towards the pirates.
(04-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Exactly. That mining field was supposed to have risk and an element of danger because Holmfirth was in the field. This would create activity and encounters. The POB completely removes that possibility however.It can still create encounters. But BMF built 2 bases there and the miners are, most of the times, escorted and in this case it is impossible to successfully pirate them, yes, I agree. But a pirate shouldn't be able to engage all the time. There are targets that you can simply not touch. I don't see how that's harming the gameplay since there're other places where the security isn't that strong.
(04-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Keep gathering, because you're not going to find any. I don't think my skype friends list is irrelevant as I was referring to actual quotes by yourself. but whatever.I'll stop here. There's no point to continue this side of the conversation. You're free to contact me on skype if there're aspects that you feel that need clearing out, if there're circumstances that you think are clouding my judgement about your factions. You can even slap me in the face with those quotes and tell me I'm wrong. I'll agree and apologize (publicly) if my distaste proves to be unjustified.
And this was my last reply in this thread since it's starting to look like a cat and mouse chase.