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+--- Thread: Let's fix this (/showthread.php?tid=140737)
RE: Let's fix this - Zephyranthes - 07-01-2016
(07-01-2016, 03:58 PM)Ninja Wrote: We shouldn't vote for who gets to be the do-whatever-I-like admin, we should vote for rules that apply to all admins.
Such as rules that make the sanction and decision-making process transparent to everyone.
I don't care who is admin, as long as they can be made accountable for what they do, just like everyone else.
While that may sound fine and dandy, the problem arises when the admins don't even follow their own rules. The rule of law is supposed to apply to both the enforcing party AND the average denizen of where that law governs, but apparently the admins aren't bound to the rules that they made. These people were banned through illegal means in respect to Rule 1.0 and the reasons and evidence are thinner than the worthless platitudes used to try and assuage the serious concerns and worries of the community. It's despicable.
RE: Let's fix this - Jack_Henderson - 07-01-2016
(07-01-2016, 02:55 PM)Cashew Wrote: I realise that there is a lot of anger due to the lack of communication between Staff and the Community. I'm going to try and ease that a bit [...]
I think you misjudge the things you started here, and the consequences. There is no anger over "lack of communication". There is anger about the decision. There is anger about you, as in: the staff.
Quote:Paranoia:
I spoke to Wesker earlier and he was asking me some questions, I told him I was writing this post and that he should seek answers in there. One of the things he highlighted was that he was paranoid that he or anyone could be banned at any moment. This was a very large exception and no one should be afraid to express their opinions on the forums about how things are done. Having the public criticise the body in charge contributes to a healthier relationship to make sure that the body in power doesn't throw the interests of the public out of the window. Now, a lot of you have just read that and are already scrolling down to reply to it saying: "But Cashew, you just banned 6 people for expressing their opinions!" or something along those lines. No, we had many reasons for the decision that was collectively made. Unfortunately I can't share those reasons because this is Cashew posting not Admin Cashew posting, if that makes sense.
Then explain why you banned @Karst. I know for sure that his criminal folder is small, especially for a player who has been in the center of it by leading factions, by being in absolutely toxic environments (like OFL chat) or the Bundestag, where infights go right to the rl level, for a long time. He is not a bittervet, he is not a bully, he is not a rule-skirter, he is not a bit of what I would describe as a malicious player who should be removed for the good of the community. If ranting in OFL chat about bad decisions, and if making critical forum posts on flawed dev work is enough to ban someone like @Karst, pretty much EVERYBODY can be banned.
Literally: everybody can be banned.
That's the atmosphere at the moment.
That's my feeling.
So, whatever you assure: I feel threatened.
My negative footprint on Disco is low, and I still feel threatened.
This is no joke, I do feel threatened by the decision.
I can only imagine how people with a long "criminal file" feel now.
And: Yes, your decision had a massive impact.
And: I do not want to play this game in this atmosphere.
Quote:Future:
What happens next? Well, this was the first step in our attempt to re-invigorate Discovery, which I understand is slightly strange and ironic.
You know that you banned 5 faction leaders? I am not saying all of them are innocent, but near future will prove that you killed off factions that way. Yes, it really is "ironic", and to be honest, it sounds cynical.
Quote:We're looking at bringing a swathe of new old players back to Discovery. There are several ways we can do this [...]
Before you even try, you need to fix the damage that has been done. In an environment like this, in which you even angered and demotivated those in the veteran league that normally support your decisions and prefer some kind of order over infighting and chaos, no new impulses will work. If you dream of exchanging the old bitter vets and the 'now demotivated non-bitter vets' by new blood, you are sadly mistaken. This is not going to happen.
You hopefully realize that your decision mainly affects those who were the pillars of faction activity (not talking about the banned, but all those who also lead, have an opinion, have the networks to make a powerful argument and have their voices heard). Those who can look back and judge the history, compare with the past, and who know the amount of damage that has been done needlessly. Mind me, I am not saying all bans are bad. But I have made it clear that I think your "target definition" is off, and that your punishments are off in this case.
Quote: What I think is very hard to see in this decision is that it was done in the best interest of the future of Discovery.
No. It was not.
If this is "for the future of Disco", I seriously have to question your / the staff's judgement.
You are there to safeguard Discovery. Not your own interests. And - sorry - at the moment, it looks as if you were doing exactly that, with a total disregard for the consequences.
Quote:[we want to] assist these affected factions and I personally encourage the high commands or leading members of those factions to either contact myself or another Admin to make it known how we can specifically help you.
You realize that all I talked to are not interested in your help?
Why ask the executioner for help after he ruined your work? Why would you turn to the one that you feel did great injustice to you? Do you think the influence of those who were banned now ends with their execution? Do you even know, or can you even imagine what is going on where you cannot look?
I can only say: you completely misjudge the amount of damage this "indiscriminate blanket ban" caused because you hit some of the wrong people and because you did it the wrong way and you keep doing it the wrong way.
Quote:No confidence in the Administration:
I can clearly see that there is a lack of trust in the Administration. I'm not going to sit here and start yelling you should trust us, I hope to gain your trust through the actions that we will take as a team in the future.
Start by stepping one step backwards, and looking at what happened. Then look at the mess. Then look at whether you were right there. Realize your mistakes. Then work to fix the damage.
That would be a method of regaining trust.
What you wrote is the exact opposite:
Quote:There are no plans at the moment to re-vote on the recently banned members. So there is no point in appealing for your buddies, they will all be able to appeal after 6 months like anyone else. I say that because I would like to re-build the relationship between us, that unfortunately means moving on from these bans. How can we re-build this trust-less relationship?
This is wrong.
There are rights that factions have.
For example, if a faction leader requests evidence on a member of his faction who was sanctioned, it has to be provided.
If you do not provide evidence, and if you cannot justify to the community (whom you serve) that the persons deserved the maximum punishment, you fail at keeping your own rules. And what would that do to "trust" that you want to regain?
Sticking to your own rules would create trust.
Showing a consequent line of action would create trust.
Showing that you understand the difference between people doing the same crime would create trust.
Judging situations correctly would create trust.
Telling us: "They are dead. Move on." is not creating trust.
Yes, it is a "trust-less relationship".
And this very announcement in this very paragraph made it clear that the staff does not understand what "trust" implies.
Quote:Staff:
- Us as staff need to be much more efficient in processing requests/reports/SRPs/appeals etc
- We need to have a much bigger presence on the forums, engaging in discussion
- We need to be more consistent. I am echoing Garret here, it's a good point to raise.
You need to talk to the people!
Not in angry forum debates that are there to vent. You will always lose.
Not in toxic OFL chats where everybody burns out in record time. You will burn out and leave. The best Admins we ever had did not survive in there.
Talk 1 on 1.
Before it is too late.
Before executions are done and suddenly Disco finds itself in a huge chaos at the possibly worst time of the year. At a time when activity is so low that it is in danger of creating a negative vicious circle.
You needlessly forced a situation that is considered wrong by a majority of the community at a time where the damage is amplified by the already difficult circumstances.
I'll end by saying: This cannot be in the best interest of Disco, and preserving this mod is your job.
Jack
P.S: I am taking a break from playing Disco. Not to put pressure on the staff, but because this situation is affecting my rl by creating an amount of negative feelings and frustration that I do not feel a game should be having on me.
RE: Let's fix this - Ninja - 07-01-2016
(07-01-2016, 04:01 PM)Omicega Wrote: I am not advocating that the system should stay how it is. In that sense, you are right - I would be in support of an entirely new ruleset holding staff accountable as well, particularly in relation to transparency in the matters you've mentioned.
That said, as I've previously said elsewhere, I do not believe that the current staff are capable of upholding any system - new or otherwise - in a manner that would satisfy my trust. They have repeatedly proven that they have no interest in serving the community in an open and responsible manner, at least as far as I see it.
Well I don't really know any of the admins and I have next to no experience with them personally.
What I do know is that I would NEVER want someone like you or Lythrilux in the admin team under the current system, because I've seen the how you act towards people.
What everyone should do (including current admins, the people who brag how much better admins they would make, and the people who yell at admins) is stop talking about how much better things will become if they had/kept power, but put in place a system where admins have no personal power to use in a hidden environment, only responsibilities to fulfill and the right tools to fulfill them in the open.
RE: Let's fix this - Omi - 07-01-2016
Maybe if you had more experience with the staff firsthand you'd share my point of view.
Furthermore, I'm certainly not advocating that I would be a good administrator, nor would I even want the position. I am far too cynical, bitter, and unpersonable to do even a halfway decent job at helping people - that doesn't mean, though, that I'm not capable of pointing out and harping on about the flaws that are currently in place.
As to your last point, that's exactly what people are trying to do. I'm not sure if you're playing dumb or genuinely don't understand, but there isn't anyone but the current staff who can change things. I'm not capable of it, nor is anyone else who "brags" or makes posts like mine. The whole system is held by the balls by the green team.
EDIT: I'd be a crap admin, but I'd be the best forum mod this place had ever seen. You don't need to be nice to fix stuff (cool)
RE: Let's fix this - Laxxy - 07-01-2016
(07-01-2016, 02:55 PM)Cashew Wrote: I can assure you that there is absolutely no bias whatsoever included in these bans. If I could screenshot and show you all the voting process we went through you'd see that Admins removed themselves from votes admitting that their vote would be influenced by personal disagreements/experiences.
The problem is not whether or not the voting of the decision was fair. The problem is how it was carried out. You banned faction leaders and contributing community members without any prior warning and without providing them any evidence. If you can get away with this then what will stop you from doing the same with another batch? It might very well be that you have sufficient evidence to ban the players, but you failed to warn them beforehand and you're still failing to provide them the evidence they deserve.
RE: Let's fix this - TheFreelancer - 07-01-2016
When I first joined the Discovery GC, I Knew right Then that something was wrong, It didn't really operate like a community, It operated more like a fight club (May be a slight exaggeration), Now me myself, I tried stay as neutral as possible on the topics, Or just ignoring them altogether, and it seems to have worked out Ok, There has been no hate directed towards me (I think.... But I don't know, Anybody here could, I don't really care too much anyways!)
I honestly Don't think anyone is at fault for this, It just seems as over time people became less tolerant of each other for small issues that arose (Especially in-game it seems to me, Sometimes on the forums), And everyone wants to blame someone for the problems, Honestly though, I don't know all too much about this community anger, So I may be wrong with a lot of my words, Mainly because I distanced myself from it (Im not a man for drama, I actually hate getting involved in any way), But it can be sorted I believe, as was stated in the OP, It will just take time an Co-Operation!
RE: Let's fix this - Irwin - 07-01-2016
(06-30-2016, 07:07 PM)Mark Hamann Wrote: Do you think that the community is angry because of the bans?
No they are not, it's just the friends of the banned people in which 90% of them act the same as the banned people but their time did not come yet.
There are many who feel that the server is now more clean than before, since lots of trouble makers are gone, starting with @"Snak3" ending with @Impyness
Well kiddo, I've never even spoken, (save for one or two ingame interactions literally years ago) with any of the banned players. Let alone would any consider me their friends. I'm glad you pointed out Snak3, because I felt his ban was pretty unjust too in much the same way and was outraged when it happened. And I absolutely hate that slimy jerk.
I'm pretty angry. And I'm not angry because "wahhh my friends were BANNED". I'm angry because I had to work pretty damned hard to get banned myself, and all these guys had to do was play the damned game.
They didn't break any rules. Trying to moderate how people play the game outside of the rules is crap, it gives us this admin team, who bans people for hurting people's feelings. Apparently all toxicity means nowadays is making an impact on the game and caring enough about your impact to fight for it. I remember when those were the people we made admins. Good times.
RE: Let's fix this - Xenon - 07-01-2016
Starting your message with disrespect stops me from exchanging the conversation with you .. I am sorry, i am raised like that and can't change
Try respecting me as i respect you and everybody, and then you will find a very healthy conversation coming from my side.
Have a good day @
RE: Let's fix this - Tarator - 07-01-2016
(06-30-2016, 07:07 PM)Mark Hamann Wrote: Do you think that the community is angry because of the bans?
No they are not, it's just the friends of the banned people in which 90% of them act the same as the banned people but their time did not come yet.
There are many who feel that the server is now more clean than before, since lots of trouble makers are gone, starting with @"Snak3" ending with @Impyness
I don't usually post much, I prefer to observe, but your posts have caught my eye as of late, so....
....allow me to clarify it for you, I'll try to be as respectful as I can.
Seeing you are relatively new (right?), I don't suppose you are in any position to throw such accusations, let alone pretend you have a point, and when you get properly countered, you back off with trivial reasons. That said, I'm pretty sure you have no freaking idea of those people. Like Karst for example. Nor you can you bring any point that would require years long experience and observation.
Anyway, to get to the point - I've mostly never dealt with any of the banned, except for Lyth. And you know what? Most interactions I had with him left me a bad taste, and in fact, our opinions clashed more often than not, but nevertheless, I'm prepared to act objectively, and impartially, and stand by my point, which is: no reason? Then the ban is hardly valid. That's how I see it, and right now, I can't see any solid reasoning with regards to rules, at all. You have to understand the complexity of what I'm trying to say, it's not just about the bans, it's the transparency and the mechanism of how those bans were handled. It was also unusual with regards to the common mechanism of how sanctions are handled in this community, and this further weakens the staff's position and credibility in the eyes of the community, which of course, is not good.
Don't understand me wrong, the staff is decent, they invest a lot of their time and are doing their jobs, and well.... they aren't perfect, but then again, no human is perfect. They make mistakes, not often, but they do, just like all of us. And this case, is one of those mistakes, or should I say it more precisely - one of those wrongly handled decisions.
As for your posts - I suggest you stop mocking people around and trying to be the devil's advocate, pretending to be "respectful" whilst throwing baseless baloney at people, it doesn't work too well.
RE: Let's fix this - Xenon - 07-01-2016
(07-01-2016, 08:03 PM)Bloxin Wrote:(06-30-2016, 07:07 PM)Mark Hamann Wrote: Do you think that the community is angry because of the bans?
No they are not, it's just the friends of the banned people in which 90% of them act the same as the banned people but their time did not come yet.
There are many who feel that the server is now more clean than before, since lots of trouble makers are gone, starting with @"Snak3" ending with @Impyness
I don't usually post much, I prefer to observe, but your posts have caught my eye as of late, so....
....allow me to clarify it for you, I'll try to be as "respectful" as I can.
Seeing you are relatively new (right?), I don't suppose you are in any position to throw such accusations, let alone pretend you have a point, and when you get properly countered, you back off with trivial reasons. That said, I'm pretty sure you have no freaking idea of those people. Like Karst for example.
Anyway, to get to the point - I've mostly never dealt with any of the banned, except for Lyth. And you know what? Most interactions I had with him left me a bad taste, and in fact, our opinions clashed more often than not, but nevertheless, I'm prepared to act objectively, and impartially, and stand by my point, which is: no reason? Then the ban is hardly valid. That's how I see it, and right now, I can't see any solid reasoning with regards to rules, at all. You have to understand the complexity of what I'm trying to say, it's not just about the bans, it's the transparency and the mechanism of how those bans were handled. It was also unusual with regards to the common mechanism of how sanctions are handled in this community, and this further weakens the staff's position and credibility in the eyes of the community, which of course, is not good.
Don't understand me wrong, the staff is decent, they invest a lot of their time and are doing their jobs, and well.... they aren't perfect, but then again, no human is perfect. They make mistakes, not often, but they do, just like all of us. And this case, is one of those mistakes, or should I say it more precisely - one of those wrongly handled decisions.
As for your posts - I suggest you stop mocking people around and trying to be the devil's advocate, pretending to be "respectful" whilst throwing baseless baloney at people, it doesn't work too well.
I am very old player here, and i play this game for over 11 years. I just have a new 2016 nickname for some of my RP which is Mark Hamann, and my older nickname was Xenon.
I am already talking from personal experience with most of those guys. I already mentioned before that i don't know @Karst good, and i will not be judging him, and also i said about him, that i am sure that the admins do not run amok banning anyone on their way without reasons. The history of the current administration team says that they do warning, then sanctioning, then bastilling then more and more .. it's degraded punishments and when it reach the maximum, it end by 6 month ban. I also said about @Lythrilux that he was acting wrong from my prospective in old times, although he is very organized leader of a faction, i told him that on voice chat. But ... he lately changed, and his replies on forums towards problems were escalating things in a bad way. But he is good person at heart from what i know about him, he did mistakes and so we all do in different extents and levels. I also talked about the rest of the banned people and i will attach to you in a spoiler what i said. I am not a hater and i don't hate any of them nor anybody else. i just hate the behavior and attitude.
![[+]](/forums/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
my words