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+--- Thread: To the Discovery Developers (/showthread.php?tid=38456)
To the Discovery Developers - Talbott - 04-17-2010
' Wrote:I was going to challenge the claim of removing corruption in an organization which is, by its very nature, corrupt. Catch and release policies. Rounding up vagrants to serve in prison factories. A for profit judicial system which rewards policies which places the undesirable classes of Liberty into a position where they -will- be coming back for shift after shift after shift of making toy dolls for little Kusari turds.
There's a big difference between corruption and running a slave market out of your prison station. The LPI selling slaves is not part of vanilla RP and is totally ludicrous.
Unfair sentencing, prison factories and the occasional acceptance of bribes? Yeah, sure. That's part of LPI RP.
Selling slaves? That's not how the LPI rolls. Why would we be selling off valuable labor force when we have such a huge demand for prison labor that we have apparently socially engineered Liberty in some mustache-twirlingly evil plot.
To the Discovery Developers - tazuras - 04-17-2010
After doing some research about the Texas system and the state of Liberty, the LPI and slaves I agree with Dusty that they should be moved planetside. One of the most convincing bits comes from the infocard for Buffalo:
Quote:Relocated to the Texas prison system, many of them end up planetside on Houston upon release.....
....Fresh out of the incubator of the Texas prison system, they have limited choices. Either they work in the factories of Houston for a pittance, join the Bounty Hunters and hunt down their former brethren, go radical and hook up with the Xenos, or rejoin their former partners in crime.
This could be taken as follows: There are a lot of people that no one will miss if they suddenly disappear on Houston. Additionally, the LPI already makes regular drop-offs on Houston, i see no reason why they couldnt sneak in some extra prisoners with every shipment or perhaps unload a whole shipment at an alternate location that happens to not have any exits other than the slaver ship landing on the next pad...
So yeah, according to game lore, very do-able, more sensible even.
As for corruption in the LPI... yeah, that's another thread but I will say this, I dont believe corruption in the LPI causes the major problems of Liberty, such as the corporate corruption, I believe the corruption in liberty, especially among liberty corps, leads to the corruption in the LPI. So, without changes to the whole house it would be somewhat difficult to change the lore of the NPC LPI. Now, if you figure out an RP way to get around that that is consistent with the lore and infocards of Liberty I would be very open to looking into it.
To the Discovery Developers - Dusty Lens - 04-17-2010
It's inaccurate to suggest that the corrupt nature of profit seeking corporations gives rise to corruption within the LPI when the LPI itself is one of those profit seeking corporations.
To the Discovery Developers - hribek - 04-17-2010
... which gets paid for protecting other Liberty corporations and some of their interests. Sugarland was actually generating profit by manufacturing hand-made toys.
To the Discovery Developers - tansytansey - 04-17-2010
' Wrote:So what happened to the millions of suddenly unemployed beat officers who were formally tasked with keeping the peace in 90% unemployment zones fueling LPI prison factories? They all Rogues now or something?Why do you think there's so many pirates in Liberty now? :lol:
The way I view the sale of slaves from lawful stations is that they're not being sold as slaves so much as being taken. The LPI wouldn't be selling the slaves, although they probably would be aware of it's presence, just can't be bothered cleaning it up.
But I agree with Dusty, move the sale point to Houston. Makes more sense shipping slaves from a planet than a prison station.
To the Discovery Developers - Maskage - 04-17-2010
' Wrote:This commodity has a significant value on how the LPI are perceived by other groups.
I think this is largely one reason why we want them removed. We have enough people going for our heads already, and don't need more factions popping up screaming "OMG SLAVERS CORRUPT PEWPEWPEWPEW"
Besides, if you really want to be anti police I'm sure you can find other reasons besides slaves to claim that we are corrupt. By the way, are your tail lights working properly?
To the Discovery Developers - Zapp - 04-17-2010
I just saw this thread. Hack showed me his post before he made it and I approved of it. Has it really come to this? Seriously? We can't change our RP because you all don't approve? That's stupid. Now, as I read through this thread, here's some thoughts I've had on various posts.
' Wrote:Yeah, I will let the Developers decide, because they will regardless. xD
But that dosen't mean I can't voice my opinion, and here I will say it again just for your viewing pleasure:
You are making a decision with the back-up from a certain group that affects the RP of everyone.
In other words, what gives you the right?
What gives us the right? Well, it's our station. We're the only official LPI faction. I'd say we get a good say over what we want on it. And I don't think it effects the RP of everyone. What do Nomads care if we sell people on a station or not? What does anyone care? You can just as easily buy slaves on Niverton or in Puerto Rico.
' Wrote:I was going to post a long review of the proud tradition involved with curb stomping lore to fit into an ideal vision.
The trend of adjusting an entire faction rather than operating as a group apart.
The idea of the Untouchables becomes the idea of Chicago's police force removing all corruption. Hurrah.
I was going to challenge the claim of removing corruption in an organization which is, by its very nature, corrupt. Catch and release policies. Rounding up vagrants to serve in prison factories. A for profit judicial system which rewards policies which places the undesirable classes of Liberty into a position where they -will- be coming back for shift after shift after shift of making toy dolls for little Kusari turds.
I guess these have all been cleaned up. It's a new future. A sterile future where things are excellent. I suppose I should inform Tanker that he can shut down the XA, Liberty's crime has been reduced to a few vagrant Rogues and Hackers floating about California. The factories are paying a fair days' wage for a fair day's work and we're entering a new golden age where the common man wants for nothing, the cop on the corner hasn't a care beyond his cup of coffee and helping a little girl find her way and, maybe, smiling at a rainbow.
So in a post, because the official faction declared it, the entire nature of a centuries old organization has changed in a blink. Not changed through any measure of realism or effort, but with the writing of a new reality on a wiki page.
But not entirely.
Just mostly.
Here's the new LPI challenge: Don't be boring.
That being said, yeah, it's silly to sell slaves on Sugarland. They should be sold on Houston.
I know you're joking Dusty. But the point doesn't change. When we say we're not corrupt, we don't mean that we're not a machine that recycles criminals. Let's face it, that's what they do even today and I really doubt people call the current justice system corrupt as much as they call the LPI corrupt. When we say we're not corrupt, we mean if you take a bribe and you're caught, there's no blind-eye turned. You're fired. Houston is to be discussed in a bit.
' Wrote:Listen pal. You can have your specific Faction RP. That's all fine with me.
But you can't just change stuff that's in-game because your Faction perceives the whole goddamn LPI NPC group as not-being corrupt. Because essentially that's what you are doing with removing this valuable piece of commodity, and frankly I don't agree.
Sorry, shall I rephrase the word "You" to "The specific group that discussed this idea and you who represented them by creating this thread?" That's more comfortable for you?
Sure we can change the stuff that's in-game. Why? Because we can perceive the "whole goddamn LPI NPC group" as being generally not-corrupt. The only person I feel that can dictate how the LPI RPs would be the Igiss. Do you have any idea what level of corruption is necessary to turn 5,000 prisoners into slaves bound for Malta on a prison station owned and operated by the LPI? The entire station would have to be taking dirty money and turning a blind eye as it would be impossible to notice thousands of inmates going 'missing' on a regular basis like that.
' Wrote:You do make good points, and infact this would not be an issue if people didn't metagame so much. "slaves" on the prison, are meant to be prisoners I assume. Fueling vanilla rp. However, everyone sees slaves and freaks out. Name it something else perhaps but leave the "implication" that this is forced labour in the info card. Nobody can say for sure we sell slaves, infact it would merely be the opinion of those people who toured our prison facility. This way while perhaps we do sell "slaves" since they are named differently we can easily deny any accusations.
Another issue is having every smuggler dock on a prison station to load up. There is no way nobody would notice 5000 prisoners going missing. No corrupt officer could manage to sneak that by the higher ups. My suggestion? change the station to a guard station. This way only LPI can dock and if said LPI is corrupt he can sell only what his ship can carry to the smugglers. (And risk being caught) I don't doubt some corrupt officers may "lose" their prisoners while transferring, but such behavior would be bad if caught by the command staff.
This was the point I was thinking of as I read through this thread. Well, the part about people noticing prisoners disappearing. The guard station one is an interesting concept which I tentatively support, but I'm not sure how much it would do. You'd be surprised how many people are neutral with the LPI Guard. Apparently it's the easiest guard faction to cozy up to...
' Wrote:You are diverging from the Canon RP of your NPC faction. That is not up for discussion, you have stated so yourself and Dusty's rather excellent post outlines how you've done it. Do you intend to continue to RP as the overall leadership of the LPI? How do you intend for Liberty to carry on making sense if you're not rounding up every minor infraction and loading them into a prison station to make license plates? Before you ask for something so drastic you need to ensure what you are asking for doesn't screw the RP of a whole House. Your change would.This, I feel, is what needs addressing most. We have not significantly diverged from canon RP. Why? Because I don't think canon RP covers us selling people on Sugarland, nor do I see canon RP being that we are a bunch of corrupt b*stards who will do anything for a few credits. The corruption in the system, which is not changing as long as the LPI is indeed the LPI is that of the prison stations, in effect, being slave-factories. However, these are by-and-large criminals doing the work and are not being sold to smugglers. Yes, we RP as the overall head of the LPI. The only people above me that I don't really wanna touch in-RP is the CEO and/or Board of Directors that the LPI must have as a corporation.
The very nature of LPI RP implies corruption. Are you referring to personal corruption, or is the LPI now the very model of a good police force working for the common good? If the former disregard the first paragraph. if the latter do respond to it.
' Wrote:Player idealism can't change the very nature of a faction's roleplay.
It can when that "player idealism" comes from not only me, but the entire LPI faction (which by-and-large agrees with me).
' Wrote:We are trying to remove it, slowly. Obviously we cannot get everything right away, however.. it was never cannon RP to sell slaves on our stations. (Perhaps we used forced labour and still do, but we'd never sell em...)
So are all factions to be tied down to Vanilla forever?
Another good point made by Marcel that I'd like to reaffirm (and I have previously). And obviously factions aren't tied down to vanilla, we've seen notable changes. The Molly's making peace with Bretonia, the Order and BHG making war in the Omicrons, etc.
' Wrote:That being said Sugarland is a bad sale point for slaves.
Please. Losing a brace of people from a space station over and over and over and over and over and over again?
Not so much.
Losing a bunch of people over and over and over and over and over again from Houston? Happens every day.
Furthermore when you've people being shipped from Houston, well, who's to say where they came from and who boxed them up for sale?
Everyone wins.
I agree with this. Very much.
' Wrote:I think you do need to differentiate between cutting down on bribe taking, and cutting down on the inherent corruption that is the LPI as an organisation. However as you said that is a note fro another thread.Indeed. People seem to construe corruption as meaning us all being friggin knights in shining armor or something. That's utter bull. The system remains in place, we're just not taking bribes from every criminal with half a credit and a slick smile.
Hosuton would be a much better sale point. If it's a change rather than a removal i am all for it.
' Wrote:It would be LP if it wasn't corrupt... not LPI.Actually, it would be the LPD (Liberty Police Department). And we have discussed possibly making that change, both amongst the LPI leadership and the leadership of the Liberty lawful factions as a whole. However, not likely to happen ever (and definitely not anytime soon).
Also, corporations aren't inherently corrupt.
Also, nationalized police departments aren't inherently not-corrupt.
Bad logic there.
To the Discovery Developers - Leo - 04-18-2010
Zapp, good post and good points. I don't disagree with any of them. Kudos. However, I want to make my own points from my point of view on this.
1.) The changing of the LPI and indies. I agree that you guys are the official faction and that indies have no say. Many people just consider the indies the "lolwutmoronslawl" people. I have had several good RP experiences with many indie LPI and Liberty Navy. You may not take what they say to heart, but it would be considerate to at least ask them what they think about it. Their opinion may not hold any weight in your eyes, but a quick "hey what do you think about this" would be cool to say the least.
2.) The RP about LPI being corrupt. As far as I can tell, they are. You cannot just go into the Wiki and write "We're not corrupt anymore" and be uncorrupt. I understand that you guys are going that direction as to cleaning up your department, but you can't do it over night. If I wanted to I could go into the Wiki and write that all Outcasts fly pink ships, they sing the lollipop song while flying around the Omicrons, and their guns shoot rainbows with pots of gold attached. That doesn't mean that they're going to start doing it...and if they did I would probably download Fraps just to get video of it.
3.) Removing the slaves from Texas completely. No, just no. The only other point is the [CENSORED] system and many people aren't even neutral with them to buy them. I censored it because many don't know about it, those that do, well, you're in the know. (The faction I protected there owes me a drink.;)) Removing them from the Texas takes away a significant amount of RP from the system. The whole "I have a contact on Sugarland or Houston that can get us slaves and take them to Malta for a mean profit" is cool RP IMHO, and removing them would severely hinder that.
4.) Moving the slaves to Houston. This seems like the best solution to the problem, because I agree, 5,000 prisoners going missing in the span of, eh, for RP sake, an hour? Yeah, not happening. Then that LPI official has to explain where 5,000 of their prisoners went and why the LPI's production of toys has gone so far down. Houston is the best answer to this.
5.) Finally, for those of you making points about how the LPI have no right to change the canon RP of their faction. How dare you. This is an RP server, the official faction wants to change their RP a little? Let them. That's what makes Discovery an ever evolving experience and makes it interesting. LPI changing to LPD? Cool. Slaves moving to Houston, even better. Just make sure that it's got RP to back up the change and you're golden.
Good luck LPI, and I hope you get the changes you wish for.
~Leo
To the Discovery Developers - McNeo - 04-18-2010
Change the sale point to Houston.
+1
But seriously, move them to Houston. It makes far more sense, as well as still technically being an LPI base due to NPC faction affiliations. Police selling slaves on a controlled and easily regulated area, such as a space station, makes very little sense.
To the Discovery Developers - Donutman - 04-19-2010
The only thing I see worthy of adding on to this, is the "LPI have no right to change canon vanila RP" thing. This ticks me off. A lot. Why? Because the Mollys just made peace with Bretonia which is A MUCH LARGER CHANGE TO VANILA RP than for us to stop selling slaves and taking bribes. And yet I have seen NO ONE complain at ALL that the Mollys have "no right to change canon vanila RP"! Seriously, this is complete and utter bullcrap, its not like we're suddenly this huge bastion of uncorruptibility. We just don't turn a blind eye to officers taking bribes nd, not to mention, selling slaves off of Huntsville was never very IRP at all.