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+--- Thread: Zoners (/showthread.php?tid=43341)
Zoners - Elsdragon - 07-07-2010
Because cam belives that they will never grant any SRP of his/and or he wont write one
Zoners - Grumblesaur - 07-07-2010
Why does everyone just NOW start whining about the Zoners and how they have a bunch of cool toys? All of the ships mentioned save for the Whale and the Corvo were in their possession pre-4.85. The only really new things are the TAZ bases and those two odd ones in the Omegas.
If it's that big a problem, let the one of the go-places-kill-stuff factions bomb GC and replace it with a Jinkusu like the others said.
After all, it IS a colony ship. Use it for what it's designed to be.
EDIT: But really, why are you whining about deviation from vanilla? THIS ISN'T VANILLA. IT'S DISCOVERY.
Zoners - n00bl3t - 07-07-2010
' Wrote:Give a person 100 bucks. Then take 50 back.
Person's final reaction: Furious.
End result: He has 50 bucks more than he had yesterday.
Give a person 100 dollars, then take 50 back immediately, not so bad.
Give a person 100 dollars, wait for them to spend it, get used to it, then ask for it back when it will drastically change their life?
Try another example?
' Wrote:Why do you think it would be so hard to gain SRP, if you've put so much time into it?
Do you want a thread detailing this? Really?
Kurosora is on money. (I daresay because ]c[, OSI- and so on were not around back then. That, and we did not have Gallia and a magical traitor.)
Zoners - Schatten Research Facility - 07-07-2010
The Zoner faction is quite the strange one. It's got no natural enemies save for the nomads (which don't really count as a threat if you take into account how rare nomad player characters are, and how they usually have bigger fish to fry) and their derivatives. Their greatest enemy has been the hostility of open space, with which they have long since waged their war with an escalating arms race of increased firepower and survivability of their ships.
Originally, the philosophy of the Zoners was "don't tread on me, we're not worth hitting" as they were small settlements of like minded escapists with no firepower or particular wealth to speak of.
Now, with the near monopoly on neutrality in the border worlds, and the seductive allure of adventure and second chances - the Zoners have swollen into an economic and popular power. Their Freeports facilitate massive commerce among warring factions, and generate equally massive capital. The "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" philosophy has encouraged a massive influx of settlers, workers, scientists, philosophers, and hopefuls from the far reaches of war-torn Sirius. Great minds from all walks of life have flocked to the Zoner lifestyle, bringing about a Renaissance of discovery and invention. Where the Zoners were once weak, they are now strong. Where they once had few, they now have many; where they were once poor, they are now rich; where they were once harmless, they are now formidable. All this, and yet - it has preserved its essence; to exist peaceably, uninvolved. All that has changed is how they once defended themselves by staying small, they now defend themselves with the fruits of their labor.
Almost all of the Zoner players in Sirius seem to understand this - they fly with the sense of security bought by the power of Zoner formidability. No, the Zoners were never meant to be a militant power. I say militant, because one can posses a strong military and still not be militant. The Zoners are non-aggressive, and their prosperity has been the result of their neutrality. Their large, well armed ships are a product of their new philosophy - We come in peace, but god help you if you don't - as it says in nearly all the heavily armed Zoner ship infocards.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Make the Jinkusu SRP only.
Why? It is such a large ship that it would be incredibly difficult to produce and once built it would only be commanded by a Zoner who is trusted by the rest of the Zoner community. Meaning a player who has a very firm grasp of Zoner role play. [/quote]
You propose that we limit the Jinkusu to SRP - I ask why? Sure, as one of the most difficult of "openly available" ships to acquire in the game in terms of both financial requirement and ID, every lolwut strives to fly one as a trophy or perhaps to compensate in some strange freudian way. However, the Zoner RP inhibits PVP Whoring - which is why you seldom see the Jinkusu being abused. You strike a valid point with the issue of how anyone can field one of the largest ships in the game - but your question applies to every capital class ship - and the answer is, there comes a point where realism and player RP enjoyment clash. On this server however, it seems we've come to favor the latter over the former. As a Jinkusu Rp-er myself, I must admit that I am biased at this point. After all, I've always attempted my utmost when RPing in my Jinkusu, and I've never abused my ship. Why should I have to give it up for a conceptual problem that hasn't manifested to the point of necessitating an intervention?
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
If that is too much, can we at least develop the Zoner NPC faction into something that makes sense? I'm told the development team prefers Zoners remain as fractured groups. Fractured groups wouldn't be able to protect a planet and design and produce a full cap ship line. There must be some form of organization/government in place for that to happen. [/quote]
The current fragmented nature of the Zoners fits quite nicely with the current power structure of the Zoners. The Zoners have split off into groups of common interest (as the original Zoners had from Sirius) - and have each formed powerful organizations in their respective fields (some becoming large trading groups, others becoming mining groups, and others still becoming a small but growing organized Religion). Like the city states of ancient Greece (though not nearly as militant) - they are usually separate, posing no threat to the status quo on their own. However, when encroached by a common threat, they become a formidable power to destroy the aggressors, before breaking off from mutual disinterest once the threat is gone - This sort of fragmentation embodies the very core of the neutrality that the Zoners represent.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Remove the Aquilon or give it to another faction.
Why? Zoners don't condone violence. They try to make peace with all and not antagonize anyone. A war ship antagonizes others. [/quote]
Where the Jinkusu was a symbol of the Zoner capacity to defend themselves, peace through overwhelming firepower, the Aquilon is the main defense against Battleship class aggressors. Currently, it is the only practical battleship class vessel in the use of the Zoners, only the Aquilon can navigate through the dense asteroid clusters of the Zoner Zones of Influence. Removing the Aquilon would cripple the defensive potential of the Zoners against Battleships.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Remove the Fearless
Why? Same reason as the Aquilon and trust me, it pains me to say this because I love the Fearless.
[/quote]
The Fearless applies to cruisers as what the Aquilon does to battleships. It too is a necessary deterrent and counter force to aggressors in cruiser class vessels.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Change the Corvo
If Jinx's new model is used, reduce its size to that of a gunboat, balance it as a gunboat, and then make it a new addition to the border world line.
[/quote]
The Corvo is supposed to be a rugged research vessel, one which should be able to offer a measure of safety in the dangers of open space - a role that a gunboat can more than accomplish. This will however allow Corvos to serve within house space, which is contrary to the spirit of the vessel. Some measure should be made to restrict the Corvo to outside House space.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Quit adding in Zoner stations.
We already have more than any other single faction and we can barely manage those. Some are rarely even mentioned. Hell, most Zoner players don't even know about the two in Omega-50.
[/quote]
There are simply too many for the current Zoner player base to support without overexerting. Also, there is absolutely NO NEED for any Freeport to be located in proximity to another as they are supposed to be safe oases in the hostile desert of open space.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Gran Canaria needs to be addressed.
Finding a planet to call their own was part of the vanilla Zoners' goals. They were looking for one in 800 AS. Giving us one that is a paradise voids that goal and would mean Zoners become far more organized. Having a planet to colonize and a full cap ship line would mean Zoners are becoming a mini house much like the CR. Meaning neutrality would be lost and a government of some type would be formed.
[/quote]
Yes, voiding one of the largest driving forces for the Zoner faction does rather render a large portion of their exploration RP moot as well - as the "Paradise" Homeworld more than suits the needs of the Zoners with regards to living space and resources.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Remove GMG as an ally.
The relationship between Zoners and the GMG is basically just a trade alliance. If GMG are fighting anyone else other than some nomads or wilde, Zoners don't get involved. The relationship between Zoners and GMG is very much on the same level as that of the IMG and Zoners; yet IMG and Zoners aren't allied. Removing it wouldn't cause a change in role play, nor would leaving it in. However, it being listed can give new Zoner players the wrong impression.
[/quote]
In addition, there is no reason for the Zoners to be considered "allied" to the Order as well - seeing how the Zoners are both technologically and economically isolated from the Order - or are at least as close to the Order as any other faction other than the default hostile ones. Some have misconstrued the Zoner ID "allied to Order" clause as an indication of favoritism Order issues over those of the BHG - it serves only to jeopardize Zoner neutrality.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
~Allow Zoners to fuse what vanilla Zoners and disco Zoners are into one. <- This is the easiest option.
What do I mean? Well, we have a planet and a cap ship line. Neither of which can be protected or produced by anything less than a group which is organized to a modest degree. Allow Zoners to morph into something similar to the CR, as it seems we were pushed down that road by the developers. [/quote]
The Zoners have long since evolved from their first generation colonist roots - but not that evolved. They have quite a few nice toys, I must admit, but the smaller playerbase due to the difficulty of acquiring the necessary paperwork combined with the (more or less) no aggression aspect of Zoner RP (which frankly bores the troublesome pew pew oriented types) ensures that the Zoner faction does not bloat to lolberty proportions. The Zoners are still the outnumbered, isolated few in the hostile reaches of a bleak and uncaring universe - it's just that now, they can shoot back.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
The following post will have info cards, rumors, and such to support my statements. Yes, what I want to do is extreme but right now Zoner RP is..........fracked up beyond belief.
[/quote]
What you propose is to revert the Zoner evolution to something in between what it was originally, and where it used to be during the timeskip. The Zoner faction as you see today is very likely to be an inevitable part in its evolution, and reversion would only postpone what you seem to hate very much. True, a number of your points do make sense individually - but I believe that the heart of your view of what the Zoners should be is... for lack of a better term, unfavorable (at least in my view). The Zoner evolution has only four possible variants: One is where it has become large enough and militant enough to be the primary aggressor in the border worlds (perhaps even to house space) - definitely not the way Zoners are. Another is where we are today; the Zoners are powerful, but pose no threat to anyone as they are fragmented by mutual disinterest within themselves (they've each got their own purpose, be it trading, mining, or Religion and care not enough to consolidate) - here, they are separately too weak to pose any threat, but will unite to become a powerful preserver of the status quo when disturbed (Zoners' don't tread on me, with a stick to back it up). Another is a Zoner faction which survives by hiding behind other factions - a neutrality preserved solely by the other factions' hesitation to anger everyone else by being the ones to break the peace, and thus the recipient of another front in their already exhausting war - this results in a very weak Zoner presence, a "Don't tread on me because the others might get angry at you! Right guys?" type philosophy which I honestly find distasteful - given how much the Zoners have gained from monopolizing on commerce in the Border Worlds, as well the large influx of players that had been drawn to the "We're peaceful, but we'll hurt you if you hurt us" style of Zoner RP. The fourth and final is the eradication of the Zoner faction - the hostility of space has claimed everything, and the Zoners, as they had no measure of defending themselves, has gone extinct as part of a brutal natural selection - which is not an option.
[quote name='Cross (Kuthumii)' date='Jul 6 2010, 12:48 PM' post='1079627']
Do the other Zoner leaders agree with me? Can't be 100% sure. I know on the ZA forum there are talks about all of the above.
Note: No posts QQ that I am trying to nerf Zoners. I tire of that attitude. I am merely trying to fix what is broken. The Rogues gave things up to fix what was broken with them, I am asking Zoners to think about doing the same.
[/quote]
Succinctly put, I'd say that the core of Zoner RP is a natural evolution of what it used to be. I'd say that I like the Zoner philosophy as it is. I'd say, that except for some of the points you've raised with regards to some details, the Zoner faction as it is today should stay the way that it is. I'd say that you press a good point for the possible future of the Zoner Faction - it should not ever be a house like entity, ever - but we can ensure that by where we go from here, not destroying how far we've come already.
Then again, this is just my opinion, and I'm rather new.
Zoners - Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever - 07-07-2010
Quote:You barely role play a Zoner at all, yet you haven't been bothered by me or any of the other Zoner leaders.
Because, ALL zoner factions are powerless, except for the TAZ, and ([C])
Quote: However, the Zoner RP inhibits PVP Whoring - which is why you seldom see the Jinkusu being abused. You strike a valid point with the issue of how anyone can field one of the largest ships in the game - but your question applies to every capital class ship - and the answer is, there comes a point where realism and player RP enjoyment clash. On this server however, it seems we've come to favor the latter over the former. As a Jinkusu Rp-er myself, I must admit that I am biased at this point. After all, I've always attempted my utmost when RPing in my Jinkusu, and I've never abused my ship. Why should I have to give it up for a conceptual problem that hasn't manifested to the point of necessitating an intervention?
Exactly. Very few people DO actually abuse the ship. There really isnt even much to abuse, its easy to hit, large and slow. Its only advantage (if you could call it that) is it has 1,500,000 armor, 200k below the Barge, I believe.
Quote:Why do you think it would be so hard to gain SRP, if you've put so much time into it?
Because, Zoner Faction leaders (with the exception of perhaps Doc Holiday and Charles.M.Burns (who I think is the leader of the []. dislike me/and/or my RP. This could be extended in the fact making any ship SPEC RP only would entail bias.
Quote:You barely role play a Zoner at all, yet you haven't been bothered by me or any of the other Zoner leaders.
But I suppose maybe, I could make it. I'd still dislike the SRP. I slowly see discovery becoming more and more SRP capland. I'd agree to that, just one thing in return.
Make ALL cap prices $0
Zoners - DAnvilFan - 07-07-2010
' Wrote:Give a person 100 dollars, wait for them to spend it, get used to it, then ask for it back when it will drastically change their life?
There must be a reason why I didn't use that example.
I'll give you a hint: it's not to fool people into rooting for my point of view.
Zoners - Marcus Lindberg - 07-07-2010
RP only Jinkusu
- Agreed. I think enough people have explained the points I agree with. While we don't know the exact number of zoner juggernauts, common sense dictates that zoners cannot maintain a million of these things with just one shipyard...
Remove the aquilong
- Disagree. Why? Make this a different type of Zoner Juggernaut instead. Each Juggernaut is meant to be unique, by making two types of Juggernauts, each with different RP behind it, we can expand the lore on the ship itself, and make it more interesting.
Remove the fearless
- Disagree. Rather, change the RP of the ship. Its meant to escort convoys, defend freeports, and act as a heavy armored transport. Perhaps get rid of some of the cruiser gun points, and add in a larger cargo bay. Or, make this another Zoner only transport or something, with different stats which fit the RP of the ship.
Change the Corvo
- No. Just no, its a perfectly fine ship the way it is. People can ask permission from the House governments to go in and research or explore House space. It adds to the RP, something which everyone owning one should do. As for n00bl3t's suggestion that we should make it a green cell or the tech chart, I think this ship should be exclusively reserved for the Zoners (unless they decide otherwise). I would like to see a civilianr esearch ship, but this one, the Corvo, should remain to the Zoners as sort of a Super Research Ship. Capable of consutructing a hadron collider or something inside it. Or a super collider for those of you know who know what that is. That would be pretty awesome. Like, totally.
The Zoner Whale
- Leave it the way it is. Zoners have grown from Vanilla. Mind you, the population of Gran Canaria is 470 Million, and the planet is rich in resrouces. You'd think after nearly 50 years that planet would be sufficiently developed in order to maintain 5K transports. Oh, and apparently, Gran Canaria was colonised in 770 A.S. I think. I think.
Quit adding Zoner stations
- Agreed. People have already explained why, so I won't repeat anything.
Gran Canaria
- The Bretonians, and expansionist empire, are losing a war with Kusari. Now they are about to be attacked by Gallia. Bloody hell, lets the Bretonian fleet take over and annex the planet. Even the ZDF, something which I participated in the creation of, wouldn't be able to stop the Bretonians militarily and would have to retreat or surrender.
Remove GMG as an ally
- Nah, I don't really see the point of this. I like them as an ally, hell, I'd even like the IMG as a Zoner ally. Makes perfect sense, and we should probably share our ship lines. I mean, these corporations are on their own fighting wars against two of the largest criminal organizations in Sirius, you'd think they'd need help fomr someone
Zoners - blubba - 07-07-2010
Quote:The relationship between Zoners and the GMG is basically just a trade alliance. If GMG are fighting anyone else other than some nomads or wilde, Zoners don't get involved. The relationship between Zoners and GMG is very much on the same level as that of the IMG and Zoners; yet IMG and Zoners aren't allied. Removing it wouldn't cause a change in role play, nor would leaving it in. However, it being listed can give new Zoner players the wrong impression.
Being allied to the Order has caused all sorts of problems in the Omegas, being one of the reasons cited for the breakup of the alliance between the Corsairs and the Order.
The fact that the BH could freely dock there in Order/Corsair space was probably at the root of that however.
As for Gran Canaria, I thought it was jointly settled and therefore, was only just a 'Zoner' world. That could well be my misconception I add. I would think having the Brets sniffing around wouldn't help the Zoners position however.
As for abandoning the caps, didn't the OPG with other corsair factions try to take the Freeport in Theta once for the biodomes?
If I remember correctly, they were eventually fought off by the Asgard Warriors (or something) using a fleet consisting largely of caps and a number of fighters/bombers.
As for Omega 50, the reason it has little or no value is that theres very little to buy/sell there and the docks in 49 cater for anything that can land at the ones in 50 but sell more useful things.
I'd give Lazerote to the Corsairs and scrap 50 or take a serious look at the economics in that area.
Zoners - lousal - 07-07-2010
' Wrote:You would be taking away RP that has been there for years, including mine. Marvin was my first RP Story. Ever. My juggernaut has 900 hours logged.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?sh...0&hl=Marvin
Its posted almost exactly a year after I joined.
Why you think making it SRP would fix whatever your trying to fix is beyond me...
900 hours and an RP lasting for some years should actually qualify your ownership to pass the SRP check, don't you agree? It's really not about taking something away from those who earned the right to take part in this decision. It's only about finding ways to demand a certain scope of RP and also some experience as Zoner player before granting this permission, since every player having a Jinkusu is surely contributing a part of his own to the overall definition of Zoner RP. Not caring about it means to allow literally any definition and any quality of RP, and please mind that a Jinkusu is often perceived as the epitome of Zoner RP, so even an attempt to have one is a clear statement that the player wants to define Zoner RP.
We are searching for compromises here.
Zoners - Camtheman Of Freelancer4Ever - 07-07-2010
Quote:900 hours and an RP lasting for some years should actually qualify your ownership to pass the SRP check, don't you agree?
Yes, yes, But I am always nervous about these things. I know for an SRP you need to do something or other with a faction to help you or somesuch... Sigh.
Quote:an attempt to have one is a clear statement that the player wants to define Zoner RP.
Define it? It's already defined, that's what lore means. No player, faction or otherwise, will ever "define" RP. Its been defined. We are merely changing our RP, this is discovery after all.
We merely influence it.