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+--- Thread: Pirat-Trader rules clarification (/showthread.php?tid=7166)
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Reverend Del - 03-23-2008
' Wrote:I think it really needs to be emphasized to pirates that it is their job to make themselves a threat. If you can't hit me with a cd you are not a threat, you are a joke.Most of the above post is fine, although 2 million seems to be the acceptable amount based on large cargo holds around these parts, the bolded bit is rubbish however, respawning is not an RP event, it is game engine only, it should not be taken into account when deciding to pay a pirate or not, it should in fact never be used as an RP method of anything, ever. We try to explain away the respawning any number of ways but it never factors into whether I pay a pirate.
At the point where I have run out of countermeasures and the pirate still has cd's is where I will stop and talk, but I have no reason to give in if I think I can get away, and the number of times I have gotten away from a dead stop with a pirate within cd range is large.
Also, a pirate needs to realize the trader can just die and start again. It is part of the game and to assume it is not part of the rp is just silly. It is a game mechanic that cannot be changed, so it really must be part of the rp. If I get a demand of money that is more than the value of my cargo, of course I am not going to ever pay it, that would be moronic.
Asking people to give you large sums of money, really anything over 1 million, means you really just want to kill them. You are just a terrorist, not a pirate, because if you aren't reasonable with your demands you will never get anyone to pay you.
And that is the key. If you really want money, be reasonable. a trader would rather stop and pay a small amount and get it over fast, then have to deal with a long chase that adds 20 or 30 minutes to their route, that kills any sense of profit they might have.
Even though sometimes the chases can be fun, the strong majority of the time they just mean the pirate charged way too much in the first place, and prolly doesn't really want to be a pirate, or it means the trader has no intentions of paying anything, and you might as well torture them so that they will think of paying you next time. You shouldn't blow them up, but do pretty much everything but, force them to either choose between getting the goods into port and buying everything on their ship again, or suiciding and losing their cargo anyways.
Also , again if you really want money, be willing to negotiate. If a trader is willing to negotiate, it means he will give you something, and something is always better than nothing.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Xoria - 03-23-2008
Jinx, that violates every legally recognized principle governing the use of self-defense.
Self-defense means that if you advance on me in a threatening manner, I can put you on the ground. If you are swinging a fist at me, I can swing back with a baseball bat. If you are wielding a knife, I can aim my gun. And if I feel in imminent danger of losing life OR limb, then I can end your sorry life.
Self-defense always allows the defender to up the ante of violence in order to protect himself or his interests.
So, if a pirate begins an act of piracy towards a trader, then the trader can protect his ship, crew, and financial status by attempting to disable or destroy the pirate's ship. In such a case, the trader is acting in self-defense. The pirate can ONLY claim self-defense if he made no threatening move towards the trader, and never said or did anything to indicate an attempt to pirate him.
WHY? :
Quote:Also, a pirate needs to realize the trader can just die and start again. It is part of the game and to assume it is not part of the rp is just silly. It is a game mechanic that cannot be changed, so it really must be part of the rp. If I get a demand of money that is more than the value of my cargo, of course I am not going to ever pay it, that would be moronic.This is wrong on so many levels. Roleplaying IGNORES game mechanics, it doesn't exploit them in order to stick a finger in someone's eye. But please, bring this attitude through Magellan on a regular basis. You may or may not learn that your time is far more valuable than your cargo.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Snapp - 03-24-2008
Yes roleplay should ignore game mechanics. But most people "RP" that a ship has an escape pod (i carry one crewman for this reason) and that when a ship is destroyed your "pod" goes back to "home base". So for example with repex it would work, large company that can replace its "trucks" and has "insurance". If the tax is too high then the cost of losing the cargo isnt as high as paying the tax. Not saying it's something people should do, but there is an RP element to it. I have only used this method once as the taxer was demanding 5 million and i didnt even have a load of cargo. (early in my time on this server)
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Why? - 03-24-2008
' Wrote:Most of the above post is fine, although 2 million seems to be the acceptable amount based on large cargo holds around these parts, the bolded bit is rubbish however, respawning is not an RP event, it is game engine only, it should not be taken into account when deciding to pay a pirate or not, it should in fact never be used as an RP method of anything, ever. We try to explain away the respawning any number of ways but it never factors into whether I pay a pirate.
I just disagree. It is part of the role play, or rather really needs to be, especially as a pirate. If I charge a trader $2 million, even if he has a massively full hold, odds are he will run for it. Because frankly, even with a 5000 cargo hold, there are not many routes that make paying a pirate 2 million worth it.
If a pirate however, chooses to make the payment more flexible, or is willing to take say 500k, odds are more will pay.
A smaller payment will make a trader decide it is worth it to just pay, rather than to run, or rather than to just die.
I really can't see how to not incorporate the fact that we respawn into the rp. That fact is kind of vital, don't you think? However you want to role play it, it will happen, and that factor can make the role play much more interesting. Especially as a pirate. A pirate needs someone to do something for him. The pirate cannot just take what he wants, he needs it to be given. Maybe the problem the pirates are having stems exactly from not taking the respawn into account, when it really needs to be.
Not to mention, it is already factored in with multiple kill bounties and the such.
' Wrote:WHY? :
This is wrong on so many levels. Roleplaying IGNORES game mechanics, it doesn't exploit them in order to stick a finger in someone's eye. But please, bring this attitude through Magellan on a regular basis. You may or may not learn that your time is far more valuable than your cargo.
No it doesn't, it incorporates them. To simply ignore something like that is rather ludicrous. Especially as a pirate. And as I mentioned the rp has already incorporated that fact a few different ways. It is so huge that it simply cannot be ignored.
And frankly, if a trader allows you to even encounter them, and you need to realize that is the way it usually works, everyone knows exactly where you are, and can always choose not to enter the system you are in, and that fact has also been incorporated into the rp a few different ways, so when you encounter them, realize it is going to be rp'ed the way the trader chooses to, unless the pirate does some very good talking and rping. And frankly, there have only been a few pirates that I have encountered so far that might fit that description. And even after that, only 2 were even remotely reasonable with their demands.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Xing - 03-24-2008
I actually enjoy blowing traders to dust. Especially the lazy one going in Chugoku.
I recently discovered they begun using F1 as a way to escape.
Did I mention I loved reporting people in my darker moods?
No matter how it ends, unless trader escape, I am in a good mood. (also, my graphic enterprise is lucrative enough to my taste, so... piracy is just a big deal of annoying wana be capdrivers for me, and a little bit of fun rp with the rp traders.)
So for me, it's pay that damned 2M or I'll enjoy blasting your helpless ship. Dishonorable?
Well, it's a lovely game. I have no problem with shooting big, tempting target.
But, to answer the original question, heck no it's not a violation. His prob for not answering you.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Reverend Del - 03-24-2008
' Wrote:I just disagree. It is part of the role play, or rather really needs to be, especially as a pirate. If I charge a trader $2 million, even if he has a massively full hold, odds are he will run for it. Because frankly, even with a 5000 cargo hold, there are not many routes that make paying a pirate 2 million worth it.
If a pirate however, chooses to make the payment more flexible, or is willing to take say 500k, odds are more will pay.
A smaller payment will make a trader decide it is worth it to just pay, rather than to run, or rather than to just die.
I really can't see how to not incorporate the fact that we respawn into the rp. That fact is kind of vital, don't you think? However you want to role play it, it will happen, and that factor can make the role play much more interesting. Especially as a pirate. A pirate needs someone to do something for him. The pirate cannot just take what he wants, he needs it to be given. Maybe the problem the pirates are having stems exactly from not taking the respawn into account, when it really needs to be.
Not to mention, it is already factored in with multiple kill bounties and the such.
No it doesn't, it incorporates them. To simply ignore something like that is rather ludicrous. Especially as a pirate. And as I mentioned the rp has already incorporated that fact a few different ways. It is so huge that it simply cannot be ignored.
And frankly, if a trader allows you to even encounter them, and you need to realize that is the way it usually works, everyone knows exactly where you are, and can always choose not to enter the system you are in, and that fact has also been incorporated into the rp a few different ways, so when you encounter them, realize it is going to be rp'ed the way the trader chooses to, unless the pirate does some very good talking and rping. And frankly, there have only been a few pirates that I have encountered so far that might fit that description. And even after that, only 2 were even remotely reasonable with their demands.
I can understand your reasoning, but a good trade route brings in ten to fifteen million per run, so 2 million is not an unfair tax, however most pirates will drop it if you RP well, the onus is on the trader and the pirate both to RP correctly and suggesting that a company would pay out on a 110 million credit insurance policy when you refused to pay out less than 2% of that value? As Xoria convinced me once before, that's bunk.
Secondly I disagree with you about the respawn, yes it's a feature of the game, but to use that as your reasoning to avoid paying pirates is not the height of RP. It's very poor RP in my mind, but I can see your reasoning.
The trader does not dictate the RP, a well kitted out pirate will demolish your trading vessel and thusly he's holding the trigger he makes the rules. If he wants you to pay 2 million, unless you as a trader can talk your way out of it, you'll be sucking vacuum if you don't pay.
I'd like to pirate you in game, it seems that you have a clear intention to RP with a pirate and it'd be fun to join in with that intent. But the general consensus is that the majority of traders would rather die than pay 5 credits, as I'm sure Xoria will attest to.
Xing: Yes it is a violation, a pirate must state his demands before he kills, it's that simple, and firing a CD is the opening act of hostility, from that point forward the pirate is the aggressor and the trader may intiate self-defense.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Xing - 03-24-2008
didnt he do his demand?
rules specify you can deal as much damage you want before requesting anything.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Reverend Del - 03-24-2008
From his initial post no, he didn't even get out "2million or die", which he could have managed even whilst being shot at. Sorry Tic but you did wrong.
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Xing - 03-24-2008
he said he wanted a donation.
no rules specify an amount of credit as far as I am concerned?
Pirat-Trader rules clarification - Ors - 03-24-2008
' Wrote:I think it really needs to be emphasized to pirates that it is their job to make themselves a threat. If you can't hit me with a cd you are not a threat, you are a joke.
At the point where I have run out of countermeasures and the pirate still has cd's is where I will stop and talk, but I have no reason to give in if I think I can get away, and the number of times I have gotten away from a dead stop with a pirate within cd range is large.
Also, a pirate needs to realize the trader can just die and start again. It is part of the game and to assume it is not part of the rp is just silly. It is a game mechanic that cannot be changed, so it really must be part of the rp. If I get a demand of money that is more than the value of my cargo, of course I am not going to ever pay it, that would be moronic.
Asking people to give you large sums of money, really anything over 1 million, means you really just want to kill them. You are just a terrorist, not a pirate, because if you aren't reasonable with your demands you will never get anyone to pay you.
And that is the key. If you really want money, be reasonable. a trader would rather stop and pay a small amount and get it over fast, then have to deal with a long chase that adds 20 or 30 minutes to their route, that kills any sense of profit they might have.
Even though sometimes the chases can be fun, the strong majority of the time they just mean the pirate charged way too much in the first place, and prolly doesn't really want to be a pirate, or it means the trader has no intentions of paying anything, and you might as well torture them so that they will think of paying you next time. You shouldn't blow them up, but do pretty much everything but, force them to either choose between getting the goods into port and buying everything on their ship again, or suiciding and losing their cargo anyways.
Also , again if you really want money, be willing to negotiate. If a trader is willing to negotiate, it means he will give you something, and something is always better than nothing.
don't get me wrong, i never said that a trader shouldn't run or that he should stop the minute a pirate says halt.
but if you are CDed, u start cruise engine again and are CDed again, that pretty much means you won't cruise out as the pirate will CD you again, you might as well stop and pay.
again, if the pirate is a fighter with no big guns, no worries, let him shout out and just ignore him, but if he is a threat, stop running and just pay.
and i don't think that 1 mil is the limit, an adv. train running the diamonds-Niobium run make about 16 mil per run if he is lazy, a one time 2 mil tax is nothing to him.
but i agree that anything more than 2 mil is way over the top..
i totaly disagree about the respawn thing. you are on a RP server, and in it, you don't get a full dock of trains availble to you everytime you get yours blown up.
and relying on the respawn button in RP is OORP.. cause you are supposed to RP life in that sector of space, not a game in that sector of space...
as for the RP of a trader - yes, yor aim is to make money, but on this server, you make money to RP, and you RP while you make money, that's the way it works.
i am supporting in donations from the money i make with my trader 3 factions plus my indies plus the faction i'm trying to create. and still, i always RP as much as i can with pirates as they are trying to make a living just as you are, and if they tax you with a good enough RP around it, it is worth it.
the day pirating becomes that boring "2 mil or die" line over and over again, that is the day i will stop paying pirates at all, and that is the day pirating will die on this server.
ppl don't go about pirating just for easy money, it is part of their characters RP, and in it, they need to RP as well.
EDIT: there are other servers in which if you get your ship destroyed, a certian amount of money is deducted from your account, maybe that is the way to get the message clear for traders that rely on respawn to not pay a pirate when they have their back to the corner.
EDIT 2 : and about the issue that started this entire issue, from my experience, most of the traders that used to behave in the manner presented in the first post, became later on the capwhoring players that ruined the game for a lot of players in this comunity, so although i do not support killing a trader without asking a tax first, i don't think there is a violation when the other side is reluctant to RP on this server and obviously ain't gonna pay even if you would of posted a demand for 500k.