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+--- Thread: Official Faction Spring Cleaning (/showthread.php?tid=7498)
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Jinx - 04-05-2008
the idea is good. - and what i like most about it... a fair approach towards the new factions. ( especially when they ask themselves why get i rejected when an old faction is basicly the same .... well, in terms of how carried away the ideas are )
what i am concerned about is - no matter how hard you try to keep it civil, - there will be hard feelings. it allready starts when someone utters "darkwing" - without a proper and plausible explanation behind that comment.
what i d wish it to become is a constructive discussion - which involves constructive critizism but also open minded factions. - its not a one way road to go. old habits won t die easily, but the factions must be up to make sometimes drastic changes which will often lead to extreme limitations. if everyone is up for that, - it may turn out to be beneficial. - if even some are not up for it.... it ll rather turn into a detrimental flaming with some "new enemies" afterwards.
edit: and what counts more - a few selected comments and votes? - or the majority of the server. in both cases it does not grant you a fair or "good" result.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Equinox - 04-05-2008
I don't really see the need for this ... Hoodlum already keeps a close eye on the factions from what I can tell and if they go inactive or have not been updated then they get a warning to get it sorted or loose there faction status ...
Why should old factions have to resubmit there faction status if everything is in order anyway? seems pointless.
Just want to add I haven't read the whole thread so if Ive got the wrong end of the stick forgive me!.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Reverend Del - 04-05-2008
' Wrote:the idea is good. - and what i like most about it... a fair approach towards the new factions. ( especially when they ask themselves why get i rejected when an old faction is basicly the same .... well, in terms of how carried away the ideas are )I think it's safe to say that hard feelings will be a product of this, but that should not deter us from this course of action, fair and equitable treatment for all should be the name of the game.
what i am concerned about is - no matter how hard you try to keep it civil, - there will be hard feelings. it allready starts when someone utters "darkwing" - without a proper and plausible explanation behind that comment.
what i d wish it to become is a constructive discussion - which involves constructive critizism but also open minded factions. - its not a one way road to go. old habits won t die easily, but the factions must be up to make sometimes drastic changes which will often lead to extreme limitations. if everyone is up for that, - it may turn out to be beneficial. - if even some are not up for it.... it ll rather turn into a detrimental flaming with some "new enemies" afterwards.
As I said, we should avoid calling specific incidents to mind and focus on the general shape of the faction, treat it as if it was a new proposal, and give it the same treatment, there's no factions so poor as the Black Lagoon, or the LRDN proposals on the Faction Status page, so most of them will not get a harsh treatment, but this should be about scraping the barnacles off the bottom, as it were, really giving these factions a good hard look at where they are and how they go about doing the things they do.
' Wrote:I don't really see the need for this ... Hoodlum already keeps a close eye on the factions from what I can tell and if they go inactive or have not been updated then they get a warning to get it sorted or loose there faction status ...
Why should old factions have to resubmit there faction status if everything is in order anyway? seems pointless.
I'd invite you to take a look at the Faction Status page, some of those have not been updated for a while, plus I think that this would enable the community to see how these factions are holding up, as is said so often in new proposals, it's the community that has to deal with them, interact with them and so forth. But there is no place to go to bring particular issues to light re:overall status. You have to PM an Admin about it or start a flame war in the forums, this would be a polite way of getting all the factions to the same stringent level as any of the newer factions which are being posted.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Equinox - 04-05-2008
' Wrote:I'd invite you to take a look at the Faction Status page, some of those have not been updated for a while, plus I think that this would enable the community to see how these factions are holding up, as is said so often in new proposals, it's the community that has to deal with them, interact with them and so forth. But there is no place to go to bring particular issues to light re:overall status. You have to PM an Admin about it or start a flame war in the forums, this would be a polite way of getting all the factions to the same stringent level as any of the newer factions which are being posted.
I could see it getting pretty messy when it comes to the older factions that have not been derived from the FL universe repost theres.. Would they now be rejected?.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Treewyrm - 04-05-2008
I do it from time to time with those "feedback" threads anyway, must have been four or five of them by now. Though avoiding flame wars is quite tricky, putting "rules of engagement" would over complicate things I think, then again - who knows?
So, quite frankly, I'm now sure if this will work, I've seen both good and bad, both constructive criticism and plain old bashing flaming from such discussions. Community does too rare reach consensus on anything and even that has to be quite simple and straight-forward, whereas factions aren't simple and there many views possible, some being opposite to the others and negating each other in the end. It could both good re-organization and a road down to flaming hell paved with good intentions (and sometimes not at all).
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Reverend Del - 04-05-2008
' Wrote:I could see it getting pretty messy when it comes to older factions that have not been derived from the FL universe.. Would they now be rejected?.That's not for me to say, it would be important to bear in mind at all times the work that has gone into the existing factions, how they enmesh within the Discovery Freelancer framework, the back story behind their faction should be updated with their newer history to better ensure they pass muster, if official status was on the line I do not think that rejecting any faction going through this solely on the basis that they are not a vanilla FL faction is feasible, or in fact wise. If they were to be rejected it should be based on the quality of the proposal and whether it meets the standards set currently regarding faction creation.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Reverend Del - 04-05-2008
' Wrote:I do it from time to time with those "feedback" threads anyway, must have been four or five of them by now. Though avoiding flame wars is quite tricky, putting "rules of engagement" would over complicate things I think, then again - who knows?To be honest the Keepers and the Phantoms were one sticking point in this idea, too often I see arguments that point to either faction which is unwise to say the least, both those factions are difficult to quantify but there again you say yourself that you do this on a regular basis with the Keepers anyway.
So, quite frankly, I'm now sure if this will work, I've seen both good and bad, both constructive criticism and plain old bashing flaming from such discussions. Community does too rare reach consensus on anything and even that has to be quite simple and straight-forward, whereas factions aren't simple and there many views possible, some being opposite to the others and negating each other in the end.
Regarding the potential flame wars, it would be a matter of keeping an eye out and chucking water on them before they got too out of hand and expecting that people would be keeping to the spirit at hand, that of giving these factions a work out, not trying to get them broken up like an old barge. I would be most upset if someone tried to turn this into their own personal vendetta against any given faction/clan. That's not what this should be about.
Even were official staus on the line, it would be a case of Official until made otherwise an complete reversal of the current Faction Creation requests, credible arguments would ahve to be made for a afcation to be stripped of it's status. It should be hard work and the faction leader should be able to deal with any criticism, either with a polite rebuttal or an equally polite acquiessence. I would highly recommend people stay out of any faction cleaning thread that hey have strong feelings towards, even if that means handing over control of the thread to more level headed members of any given faction. Polite, constructive criticism is the only way to go with this, if criticism is required.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Treewyrm - 04-05-2008
Del, that's just about being idealistic really. But back here on Earth things aren't always done out of good intentions, with much politics this is about to bring even more, to open old wounds and grudges of the long gone past. Recommendations are what they are, and some just plain ignore them and flame because that's what they want.
What I am saying is that in the end it'll most probably bring more politics and power juggling instead of a real deal of an appropriate, realistic and constructive criticism. Just speaking my mind, my personal opinion out of personal experience here. Honestly, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this one, but I'm skeptic. Try if you are certain about it, whereas I'm just going to stick to the occasional feedback threads instead, lately they've been efficient enough to keep going with them, so no point for me to change what works already.
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Reverend Del - 04-05-2008
' Wrote:Del, that's just about being idealistic really. But back here on Earth things aren't always done out of good intentions, with much politics this is about to bring even more, to open old wounds and grudges of the long gone past. Recommendations are what they are, and some just plain ignore them and flame because that's what they want.
What I am saying is that in the end it'll most probably bring more politics and power juggling instead of a real deal of an appropriate, realistic and constructive criticism. Just speaking my mind, my personal opinion out of personal experience here. Honestly, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this one, but I'm skeptic. Try if you are certain about it, whereas I'm just going to stick to the occasional feedback threads instead, lately they've been efficient enough to keep going with them, so no point for me to change what works already.
Idealism? An opinion may be valid but strong opinions always provoke equally strong opposing opinions, if this idea is to go ahead, keep it out, simple as that. Most of this community is old enough and sensible enough to know when theya re flaming or posting constructive criticism. All I'm asking is that flaming be kept to a minimum.
Keepers are the only faction that uses feedback threads, all the rest have a "no comebacks" policy, we cannot critique their attitudes without provoking a flame war, normally becasue it's straight after something has happened that could provoke a flame war. This would be an opportunity for neutral ground. If people want to take it personally, that's up to them. But they shouldn't.
I will reiterate my point that if this goes ahead it should be mandatory for all factions created prior to the Admins having the sole rights to approve or reject an application. There should be no "opt out".
Official Faction Spring Cleaning - Cawdor - 04-05-2008
I really like the idea, as it is one of fairness.
On the first glimps, you are afraid people may think "I did'nt got approved and then I looked on the Phantoms and IND posts - payback time!".
But lets be honest here: The Idea of Del supports no one else then these factions! Because if the job is done, no one will ever dare to point the finger at them again, as they are not only established for ages but also satisfying the demand of a clear and modern paper work.
Those who feel that they might have a high potential to get flamed during the process Del suggested here, should always keep in mind that, in the end, they are the only ones who benefit from such methods. And by the way, support general fairness.
Furthermore, I suggest to create an extra forum for this to keep a better overview.