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+--- Thread: Information about upcoming Zoner changes (/showthread.php?tid=112325)
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Kazinsal - 02-26-2014
Yep, that sounds about right.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - puppytaste - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 08:04 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: Yep, that sounds about right.
Well there you go then. I dont like you. So im going to push you around because im bigger than you. Are you a 13 year old overweight playground bully? You sound like one. DELETE DELETE DELETE! BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! NOBODY BUT MEEEEEEE CAN HAVE A CAP!!!! NOBODY AT ALLLLLLLL!!!!!! GRWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Echo 7-7 - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 08:02 AM)Dirk Danger Wrote: Talking to either of you it like talking to a brick wall. Oh well, just try and delete the issue. Delete anyone you don't like. You have the POWAH!
> Gets proved wrong
> Offers insults instead of taking constructive action
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Kazinsal - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 08:08 AM)Dirk Danger Wrote:(02-26-2014, 08:04 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: Yep, that sounds about right.
Well there you go then. I dont like you. So im going to push you around because im bigger than you. Are you a 13 year old overweight playground bully? You sound like one. DELETE DELETE DELETE! BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! NOBODY BUT MEEEEEEE CAN HAVE A CAP!!!! NOBODY AT ALLLLLLLL!!!!!! GRWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
This is why no one takes Zoners seriously.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Thyrzul - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 07:40 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: I asked the outcasts, having seen CL corvos. Their response being "yeah sure" is not *me* powergaming, if it's powergaming at all.
Sure, I didn't say you were powergaming, you weren't, it would have been problematic from their side because as far as I know only devs are above factions when it comes to deciding who gets their own tech and who doesn't, meaning that a non-zoner should have even less saying in who gets a zoner ship and who doesn't than a non-top-guy zoner. But in the same time I assume you should have known this as well.
As for the second part of your post, I agree with you totally, the lore behind those caps is fishy at best, but then caps existed, and in many occasions roleplay behind them as well. What are you gonna do now? Tell Doc to shove his Med Force Enterprises up where the sun doesn't shine? There is stuff you can't retcon that easily, and that's why we still have Gallia and that part of playerbase who put effort into Gallia. Because yes, there is a part of the playerbase who put effort into Gallia, even if it was a bad decision, just like how there is a playerbase who put effort into using Zoner caps as what they were intended to be, RP devices. Collectively punishing all and everyone is just as wrong as collectively doing nothing at all, jumping from one absolute to the other, seemingly without considering middle ways.*
And then I read all these complaints from zoners that basically none of them were asked, and then I read these responses from the dev team, mostly Jinx tho, that they were indeed asked, and such a situation raises a lot of questions.
*And here comes my proposal: Restrict capital vessels to official factions only: it would be the reward to be in an official faction as well as a responsibility for officials to keep numbers as authentic as possible. Gives a bit more perks to the already totally nerfed official factions and an alternative to control the problematic usage of the cap line.
As for the second part of your post, I agree with you totally, the lore behind those caps is fishy at best, but then caps existed, and in many occasions roleplay behind them as well. What are you gonna do now? Tell Doc to shove his Med Force Enterprises up where the sun doesn't shine? There is stuff you can't retcon that easily, and that's why we still have Gallia and that part of playerbase who put effort into Gallia. Because yes, there is a part of the playerbase who put effort into Gallia, even if it was a bad decision, just like how there is a playerbase who put effort into using Zoner caps as what they were intended to be, RP devices. Collectively punishing all and everyone is just as wrong as collectively doing nothing at all, jumping from one absolute to the other, seemingly without considering middle ways.*
And then I read all these complaints from zoners that basically none of them were asked, and then I read these responses from the dev team, mostly Jinx tho, that they were indeed asked, and such a situation raises a lot of questions.
*And here comes my proposal: Restrict capital vessels to official factions only: it would be the reward to be in an official faction as well as a responsibility for officials to keep numbers as authentic as possible. Gives a bit more perks to the already totally nerfed official factions and an alternative to control the problematic usage of the cap line.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Savas - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 08:16 AM)Thyrzul Wrote:
*And here comes my proposal: Restrict capital vessels to official factions only: it would be the reward to be in an official faction as well as a responsibility for officials to keep numbers as authentic as possible. Gives a bit more perks to the already totally nerfed official factions and an alternative to control the problematic usage of the cap line.
So much yes. This is probably as good as it gets when it comes to meeting in the middle.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Coin - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 07:40 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: I asked the outcasts, having seen CL corvos. Their response being "yeah sure" is not *me* powergaming, if it's powergaming at all.under what rubric do the outcasts get to hand out zoner tech?
(02-26-2014, 07:40 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: I have nothing against Zoners, nor would I have anything against Zoners having capital fleets if their lore allowed for it. Unfortunately, the Zoners are not a nation, or a faction, but rather a label for those groups and individuals who exist outside the confines of the houses and their governments. And trying to maintain a fleet of battleships without a central authority and a whole network of shipyards and defense contractors just doesn't work.
this is lame-duck RP reasoning. Kaz, the zoner cap fleet has been around since ever, and you *NOW* decide to retconn them as they cannot, in rp, sustain them
i've asked this question before, and you've managed to overlook it. Will this line of RP-based reasoning be used to delete the cap ships of other factions? Should the hessians be worried? the outcasts? the corsairs?
This is the thin end of the wedge when it comes to brute-force imbalance of LORE over GAMEPLAY, which is not how the gaming industry has grown from the elites of yesteryear to the multi-billion dollar global phenomenon that it is today. Games are supposed to be enjoyable, and this requires balance. if there are too many zoner caps, raise the prices on them to make people mine and trade for longer to be able to afford them, but give official faction players a discount on their purchase so as to encourage the development of the community. There are very very few long term players who have remained indies here - when you join a faction, it is for the advantage of combined activity.
The job of the developers is to develop the game. We like shiny new toys, and pretty much every ship that jinx is a thing of beauty. But beautiful-looking ships are not the totality of the gaming experience. The starflea could be the best looking ship, ever, but the stats on it make it so fragile that we now get given freighters at restart.
Fragility of the starflea is balanced by the eye-ball wrenching agility. Capital ships firepower and armour are balanced by their lack of CD and the fact that they turn like a brick, and are easy prey for a bomber duo. Transports? meh. They are not fast enough (considering that they have less armour than gunboats), they are less agile, and they generally have hideous blind spots that can hide a VHF so the turrets cannot get them.
If, as you say, this is to restrict Zoner caps, are all other caps going to be similarly treated, across the board? because that would be balanced and equable. As it stands, the 'punishment' of indy cap use is being applied to the wrong people - the faction players who are your loyal customers. It takes 13 times more effort to gain a new customer than it does to retain an exisiting one. This unilateral deletion of ships has fostered intense bad feeling, which actively hinders players' desire to remain members of the community. Just think for a second, and kick in the empathy gland. "what would i think if this was being done to me?"
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Sath - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 12:29 PM)Coin Wrote:(02-26-2014, 07:40 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: I asked the outcasts, having seen CL corvos. Their response being "yeah sure" is not *me* powergaming, if it's powergaming at all.under what rubric do the outcasts get to hand out zoner tech?
(02-26-2014, 07:40 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: I have nothing against Zoners, nor would I have anything against Zoners having capital fleets if their lore allowed for it. Unfortunately, the Zoners are not a nation, or a faction, but rather a label for those groups and individuals who exist outside the confines of the houses and their governments. And trying to maintain a fleet of battleships without a central authority and a whole network of shipyards and defense contractors just doesn't work.
this is lame-duck RP reasoning. Kaz, the zoner cap fleet has been around since ever, and you *NOW* decide to retconn them as they cannot, in rp, sustain them
i've asked this question before, and you've managed to overlook it. Will this line of RP-based reasoning be used to delete the cap ships of other factions? Should the hessians be worried? the outcasts? the corsairs?
This is the thin end of the wedge when it comes to brute-force imbalance of LORE over GAMEPLAY, which is not how the gaming industry has grown from the elites of yesteryear to the multi-billion dollar global phenomenon that it is today. Games are supposed to be enjoyable, and this requires balance. if there are too many zoner caps, raise the prices on them to make people mine and trade for longer to be able to afford them, but give official faction players a discount on their purchase so as to encourage the development of the community. There are very very few long term players who have remained indies here - when you join a faction, it is for the advantage of combined activity.
The job of the developers is to develop the game. We like shiny new toys, and pretty much every ship that jinx is a thing of beauty. But beautiful-looking ships are not the totality of the gaming experience. The starflea could be the best looking ship, ever, but the stats on it make it so fragile that we now get given freighters at restart.
Fragility of the starflea is balanced by the eye-ball wrenching agility. Capital ships firepower and armour are balanced by their lack of CD and the fact that they turn like a brick, and are easy prey for a bomber duo. Transports? meh. They are not fast enough (considering that they have less armour than gunboats), they are less agile, and they generally have hideous blind spots that can hide a VHF so the turrets cannot get them.
If, as you say, this is to restrict Zoner caps, are all other caps going to be similarly treated, across the board? because that would be balanced and equable. As it stands, the 'punishment' of indy cap use is being applied to the wrong people - the faction players who are your loyal customers. It takes 13 times more effort to gain a new customer than it does to retain an exisiting one. This unilateral deletion of ships has fostered intense bad feeling, which actively hinders players' desire to remain members of the community. Just think for a second, and kick in the empathy gland. "what would i think if this was being done to me?"
Man,you make some good valid points.Sad that they dont understand that.Kudos to ya.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Nexus Ark - 02-26-2014
(02-26-2014, 07:52 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote:(02-26-2014, 07:44 AM)Dirk Danger Wrote: Livadia Shipyard, Corinth, Sparta, and even Bethlehem has a shipyard attached to it. But you seem to like to pick and choose what actually exist.
Fixed that for you.
He is not half wrong either, Bethlehem used to have a drydock before devs went trigger happy over it. Like how Livadia had a Drydock disappeared and with 2 biodome + 8 storage canisters shifted to FP15 overnight? It looked like an alien went around and trolled the place up. I am not sure about Sparta or Corinth but this is what Beth definitely used to look like before devs started to mess with it. I smell conspir[A]cy
![[Image: 250px-Bethlehem_Station.jpg]](http://discoverygc.com/wiki/images/thumb/1/17/Bethlehem_Station.jpg/250px-Bethlehem_Station.jpg)
(02-26-2014, 08:04 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: Yep, that sounds about right.Have you listened to yourself ? That is pretty much enforcing yourself are just power abusing mongols who does not listen to anyone.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Enkidu - 02-26-2014
And I'm still not entirely aware, after reading every post in every thread, what side of the field the Dev team is playing for, Jinx excepted.