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+--- Thread: The future of mining? (/showthread.php?tid=55945)
The future of mining? - horvat - 03-03-2011
Didn't read anything but im sad Cannon you ****ed up the food chain. There will be always lolwuts but miners lure out pirates, pirates lure out those who hunt them and everyone is happy (there will be role playing and pvp and the server will be full). And did you notice how there is decrease in numbers of players on the server since you removed the mining? This is plain stupid. Trading has to be a bit buffed and mining should stay the same. Thank you
The future of mining? - Lobster - 03-03-2011
' Wrote:[4:13:32 PM] Aaron (Boss): What do you think of this whole mining thing?
[4:14:13 PM] Paddy O'Donaghue: Paddy O'Donaghue shrugs
I liked shooting rocks Q_Q But I never actually mined.
[4:14:32 PM] Paddy O'Donaghue: To be honest, I didn't mind Dublin being flooded with lulz. It was better than being empty, I thought.
[4:15:43 PM] Aaron (Boss): I stopped mining after the Omega-7 incident
[4:15:53 PM] Paddy O'Donaghue: Omega-7 incident?
[4:16:47 PM] Aaron (Boss): When it first came out, myself and a pack of cronies decided to mine
[4:17:03 PM] Aaron (Boss): We plied the platinum route before anyone else
[4:17:09 PM] Aaron (Boss): Then that got shivved
[4:17:12 PM] Aaron (Boss): We moved to Silver
[4:17:15 PM] Aaron (Boss): Guess what?
[4:17:23 PM] Aaron (Boss): Pennsy became **** for mining
[4:17:28 PM] Aaron (Boss): Moved to Tau-23
[4:17:47 PM] Aaron (Boss): Made a cool half-billion each before we moved to Tau-37
[4:17:55 PM] Aaron (Boss): We realized the drops were better there
[4:18:03 PM] Aaron (Boss): We abused the Junker ID
[4:18:11 PM] Aaron (Boss): Cargo piracy olol
[4:18:18 PM] Aaron (Boss): Any time a pirate came in range
[4:18:19 PM | Edited 4:18:26 PM] Aaron (Boss): we'd have one of the haulers "pirate" us
[4:18:39 PM] Paddy O'Donaghue: (rofl)
[4:18:45 PM] Aaron (Boss): We turn over the ore
[4:18:51 PM] Aaron (Boss): He runs it through Alpha, down to NB
[4:19:00 PM] Aaron (Boss): That worked for a while
[4:19:10 PM] Aaron (Boss): but we only got about 200mil each from that
[4:19:16 PM] Aaron (Boss): The route was too damn long
[4:19:30 PM | Edited 4:19:31 PM] Aaron (Boss): So we moved to Omega-7
[4:19:36 PM] Aaron (Boss): Started mining copper
[4:19:46 PM] Aaron (Boss): but the lack of a jumphole up to Bering was a pain in the ass
[4:19:52 PM] Aaron (Boss): The route was this odd 7 shape
[4:20:00 PM] Aaron (Boss): Swapped to Silver again
[4:20:14 PM] Aaron (Boss): One day we were mining a bit out of our normal spot and hit cobalt
[4:20:20 PM] Aaron (Boss): KA-CHING
[4:20:40 PM] Aaron (Boss): At this point we had three Collossi, five Behemoths, seven Hegemons, and a few assorted fighters
[4:20:49 PM] Aaron (Boss): We did the math:
[4:21:05 PM] Aaron (Boss): Five Hegemons can keep three Collossi and a Behe running non-stop
[4:21:23 PM | Edited 4:21:55 PM] Aaron (Boss): We were ****ting Cobalt ore on Ingolstadt
[4:21:32 PM] Aaron (Boss): And then I made a wondrous discovery
[4:22:10 PM] Aaron (Boss): Nuremburg sells Rheinland military vehicles
[4:22:33 PM] Aaron (Boss): Clearly the next step was to abuse the current socioeconomic climate in Leeds
[4:23:45 PM] Aaron (Boss): We'd run a ship of Cobalt ore to Ingolstadt, sell it for about 60mil, land on Nuremburg, load up with Military Vehicles, run it to Battleship Nagasaki for another 15mil. Fly empty to either Leeds ot Stokes, depending on the dominant faction at the time, and load up on hull panels
[4:23:58 PM] Aaron (Boss): Fly those through the Omegas to Oder
[4:24:08 PM] Aaron (Boss): Sell, fly to the Ring, grab Mining Machinery
[4:24:28 PM] Aaron (Boss): Fly to Elbich in Omega-7
[4:24:37 PM] Aaron (Boss): From Elbich it's about 20k to where we were mining
[4:24:46 PM] Aaron (Boss): A round trip took around an hour
[4:25:03 PM] Aaron (Boss): We could keep three Collossi running at full tilt
[4:25:13 PM] Aaron (Boss): We usually mined for five hour stretches
[4:25:22 PM] Paddy O'Donaghue: ... Dear lord.
[4:25:39 PM] Aaron (Boss): The hull panels and mining machinery netted another ten mil or so
[4:25:57 PM] Aaron (Boss): All told, we made ~85mil per hour per 5k
[4:26:12 PM] Aaron (Boss): Splitting that eight ways, we were pushing 40mil an hour
[4:26:43 PM] Aaron (Boss): We didn't mine very regularly, otherwise I'd currently rival Kindred for cash
[4:26:55 PM] Aaron (Boss): but we'd mine once or twice a week
[4:27:07 PM] Aaron (Boss): I paid for a Marduk that way
[4:27:22 PM] Aaron (Boss): See, the thing was
[4:27:30 PM] Aaron (Boss): We used the mining mod the way it was intended
[4:28:07 PM] Aaron (Boss): People get so hung up on the idiots who don't get it
[4:28:17 PM] Aaron (Boss): they completely miss the people who use it the right way
[4:28:38 PM] Aaron (Boss): Dusty and his merry band of GMG miners comes to mind
[4:28:48 PM] Aaron (Boss): They didn't mine
[4:28:52 PM] Aaron (Boss): The stole ore
[4:28:56 PM] Aaron (Boss): They made billions
[4:29:06 PM] Paddy O'Donaghue: O.o
[4:29:16 PM] Aaron (Boss): Granted, so did we
[4:29:42 PM] Aaron (Boss): I think the biggest issue confronting Discovery with regards to the mining mod is that people are dead-set in their ways
[4:29:52 PM] Aaron (Boss): They're used to solo trading
[4:29:56 PM] Aaron (Boss): So they mine solo
[4:30:05 PM] Aaron (Boss): Thus defeating the purpose of the mod
[4:30:32 PM] Aaron (Boss): We never were successfully pirated, either
[4:30:41 PM] Aaron (Boss): A gunboat tried once
[4:30:49 PM] Aaron (Boss): but was hunted down by a swarm of vengeful hegemons
tl;dr, people are stupid and don't know how to use the mining mod.
Have my babies?
The future of mining? - VoluptaBox - 03-03-2011
' Wrote:Didn't read anything but im sad Cannon you ****ed up the food chain. There will be always lolwuts but miners lure out pirates, pirates lure out those who hunt them and everyone is happy (there will be role playing and pvp and the server will be full). And did you notice how there is decrease in numbers of players on the server since you removed the mining? This is plain stupid. Trading has to be a bit buffed and mining should stay the same. Thank you
That's actually true. For the first time in a loooooooooong time, the server wasn't full today, let alone Dublin.
Well, look at the bright side, no need to wait an hour to get in:D
The future of mining? - Xanthian - 03-03-2011
How about this... (Some of this may be difficult to do, some may be impossible, I am just putting idea's out there)
Turn mining back on (let's face it, the more you give players to do, the more players will continue to play)
Make Mining (outside of Starting area) something that can only happen with specific tags (more so then it already is). Pretty much zero yield without proper tags and equipment.
Set a limit on how much a pirate can take from you (reasonable limit) so that the miners are more inclined to stay and possibly RP their way out of it, or end up paying (rather than f1 out). Ensure the limit allows the pirates can still make their living.. Just not all on 1 miner. Silly thing to have perhaps 100 ore in your hold and a pirate come and demand 20mil...
If disconnected (either F1 or legit) require a reconnect time (something reasonable, 5-10min or so) this will prevent F1 and jump on GB type stuff (only applies if you are not currently dock'ed at a station). If someone legitimately disconnects.. more than likely it will take them a few min to get back online anyhow.
Reduce price of ore sales, increase drop rate, do so in a manner in which mining is slightly better then trading.
Open more ore and locations (spread the wealth and thus the players)
If possible make it so that pilots equipped to mine can not sell it. They will need traders to do it for them, and as such may open more trade runners (especially if there are more than 2 places to mine). Hey more teamwork and interaction.
Give Ore in space that has been jettisoned a very short lifespan, to combat the log-out switch to trader, solo-minded miners. This again will help create interactions and contracts.
Up the punishment for Lolwut players overall.
Increase diversity of trade routes for ore, all types.
The future of mining? - VoluptaBox - 03-03-2011
Quote:Set a limit on how much a pirate can take from you (reasonable limit) so that the miners are more inclined to stay and possibly RP their way out of it, or end up paying (rather than f1 out). Ensure the limit allows the pirates can still make their living.. Just not all on 1 miner. Silly thing to have perhaps 100 ore in your hold and a pirate come and demand 20mil...
Stopped someone with a full cargo of ore, asked 1 million,
His answer was "u crezi!?" and started shooting at me <.<
Of course I was happy as I got the hole cargo:D
But it goes to say that non roleplaying miners/traders won't pay no matter how reasonable the demand is.
Of course, there's the other way around where a non reolplaying pirate will ask 3 millions on an empty cargo (happened to me as well).
The future of mining? - Xanthian - 03-03-2011
' Wrote:Stopped someone with a full cargo of ore, asked 1 million,
His answer was "u crezi!?" and started shooting at me <.<
Of course I was happy as I got the hole cargo:D
But it goes to say that non roleplaying miners/traders won't pay no matter how reasonable the demand is.
Of course, there's the other way around where a non reolplaying pirate will ask 3 millions on an empty cargo (happened to me as well).
There is nothing the admin or players can do about those that play and do not want to RP (or crappy RP). Except perhaps kick them. There are 2 seperate issues here.
People that are not playing to RP
Extremely limited choices in current money making with-in a timely manner.
Both these problems are completely seperate.. yet they become more "aware" because of each other.
You know, I do not even mind that so much (the 3mil request). I can recall a time when I was playing that 3-5mil was pretty much the standard pirating fee for much of everything.
Then I came back and BAM.. 20mil or die (as they are already shooting my shields and health down before I can even respond). As a miner I would pay 3mil.. loaded or not.. simply.. if we are talking RP.. my ship and crew is worth over 3mil.. and as such paying 3mil would be preferable to being blown up.
Now I mined a little and traded a little. I noticed a huge difference, being a trader the quality of pirate I came across was much better but very few interactions. When I mined.. it was a crap shoot to if I was get a lolwut or a good RP pirate. Does that mean mining is bad.. Nope.. it just means I encountered MANY more pirates while mining then I did while trading. Why?.. because you limited the entire server to mining 3 locations for any profit.
Sure I can drudge away for a 3 days to make 20mil as a trader.. only to have a pirate come along and try and take 20mil in 5min.. Thats not very balanced. So either place a cap on pirating (with a nerfed mining) or up trade profits is the only way to deversify the community.
The future of mining? - kingvaillant - 03-03-2011
I believe it would be accurate to say that this situation is the result of a discussion I had with Cannon.
My intention was not to turn it off, but to reduce the profit in Dublin; mainly to give a relief to the "good" players operating there by causing a forced migration. Because, I believed that there was something wrong with the mining mod. Alas, I couldn't put my finger on the right spot.
Blame me... Done? Back to work.
By reading this discussion, it seems that the problem is filling time, value of total cargo and mining areas. (which IMO makes sense)
Filling a ship takes time, and during this time the miner is not moving; trading activity is...non-existent. Thus, making the miner a sitting duck for a long amount of time, forcing pirates who are sitting on lanes and trade points to move to the mining spots. Then, since the pirates are at the mining spots, guess where the lawfuls are too? And then you get a closed circle of activity until one of the parties obliterate the other. It also kills activity in other systems, since everyone is in the mining area (ever seen someone in Cambridge, Manchester or Edinburgh?).
Solution: Reduce the time it takes to fill the ship -> Miners are filling themselves more quickly and thus need to move through Sirius and other systems more frequently. Making activity more widespread.
Travelling around with a cargo worth 50mil is quite dangerous. No one wants to loose such cargo to a pirate. Pirates in return know that the cargo has a high value and then ask for 5-10mil tax. Problem however is that a mining/trading ship is usually used to make money to repair/equip/finance an other ship/faction. Thus, it is frequent that those traders will quite frequently transfer money over to their own ships to pay their things. Thus you have a noticeable amount of miners flying around with less money than asked...and a 50mil worth cargo... Death guaranteed (frustration included).
Solution: Reduce value of total cargo -> Transporting the Ore becomes as dangerous as transporting any other normal commodity. Thus, pirates do not ask for high tax, Miners get less frustrated upon cargo loss. Again, miner has to make more trade runs to make money, thus more activity in other systems.
We currently have seventeen systems that feature a mining bonus. Although, only 3-4 of those are being mined (Dublin, Tau-23, Penn, O-7), which brings me to the conclusion that the remaining nearly unused systems are not as profitable as those. Thus, Every miner, pirate and lawful are jammed in the same systems.
Solution: Re-balancing the unused mining areas. As a result, activity would spread itself to these other systems, spreading players everywhere. Giving more RP to other factions that might want to invest into mining. Pirates that do not operate in Tau-23, penn, Dublin or O-7 will get more activity.
EDIT Also! (woops) I believe more ore drop points would be needed. If you end up with Silver... You're forced to go to Narita...But what happens if you're hostile to Kusarians? You can't mine that ore. Thus, what I could propose best is to add drop points in each house capital systems. 2 per systems more precisely, that is one in the system on a lawful base, the other on a junker base for unlawful players. Also, we might need to add other drop points for special factions like Xenos for example. I would make those added drop point 25% less profitable maybe.
The future of mining? - Hastings - 03-03-2011
' Wrote:Didn't read anything but im sad Cannon you ****ed up the food chain. There will be always lolwuts but miners lure out pirates, pirates lure out those who hunt them and everyone is happy (there will be role playing and pvp and the server will be full). And did you notice how there is decrease in numbers of players on the server since you removed the mining? This is plain stupid. Trading has to be a bit buffed and mining should stay the same. Thank you
This is a bad thing why? It says something when the server is full and about 50 players are in Dublin.
The future of mining? - Jeremy Hunter - 03-03-2011
To avoid an insane size quote...
I what kingvaillant said.
Please.
The future of mining? - mio_cid - 03-03-2011
' Wrote:Turn it back on, but add other mining spots that are just as profitable as Dublin/o7/t23, to spread everyone around and lower the ratio of new players to experienced players in the mining areas, and as such increase the level of integration between new players and experienced players.
What I mean by this is; Currently there are (or were) about a dozen or so mining spots, however, all but 3 were not very profitable, hence everyone got concentrated in those three systems, causing the levels of stupid behaviour to rise, all that needs to be done is that mining spots other than the ones in t32, o7 and Dublin need to be buffed to a similar profitability, to spread everyone out. Nerfing or removing the mining mod will have the same effect, but it will also kill several factions that rely on the activity/money it brings to function.
Edit: Also, more diverse sell-points are needed, for example, gold only sells in New York, which is silly, as Detroit munitions is not the only station in Sirius that can process gold ore, or needs gold ore. The same is true for all other ores. IMO, each ore should have at least 1 sellpoint in each House, and perhaps an unlawful one or two for groups like the Corsairs/Outcasts, which are mini-Houses. This will yet further spread people out and do what I have outlined above.
Just perfect, i really like this idea. very smart move and you make everyone happy