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+--- Thread: Wiki - Feedback Thread (/showthread.php?tid=10912)
Wiki - Feedback Thread - looqas - 08-07-2008
There's a bit of inconsistency in house names. Liberty, Bretonia and Kusari (and I put also Outcasts) have articles named as above. But Rheinland leads to category Rheinland and the article about Rheinland is a bit weird.
I made a couple of categories like Houses, "house names" and updated the article somewhat.
If someone wonders I've been editing articles I have encountered to include links and putting the links into format that at least Hyung is forcing in ("First Caps Words")
[[Artcile Name|the link text]]
Please take a look at the discussion in the wiki help page about categories also, so we can move on with categories aswell.
EDIT: 3 cheers for Igiss for blocking Rick the Dick.
Wiki - Feedback Thread - Blodo - 08-07-2008
Updated all fighters and bombers with the new infobox. Anyone wants to help me out? >_>
Also just to remind, if you want any other infoboxes just say. Like, a system infobox perhaps?
Wiki - Feedback Thread - Klaw117 - 08-07-2008
Finished Class 1-7 Guns. Still got a long way to go though...
Thank God I have DataStorm, otherwise this would take me weeks to do.
Wiki - Feedback Thread - chovynz - 08-07-2008
Klaw117 Wrote:Finished Class 1-7 Guns. Still got a long way to go though... Thank God I have DataStorm, otherwise this would take me weeks to do.Good work! Lotta info and hard work there.
Will you take recommendations to change some things in those lists?
Blodo Wrote:Updated all fighters and bombers with the new infobox. Anyone wants to help me out? >_> Also just to remind, if you want any other infoboxes just say. Like, a system infobox perhaps?Thanks Blodo. You rawk! I'll get back to you about other infoboxes once I've had a think about some of them and how to integrate all the necessary info. You could always have a look see yourself, to see what would suit that kind of infobox.
I'm not working on specific things until we have sorted out the naming conventions of the page titles. That and I'm taking a little break at the same time from actually inputting data. Sorry I couldn't help you with infoboxes.
looqas Wrote:There's a bit of inconsistency in house names. Liberty, Bretonia and Kusari (and I put also Outcasts) have articles named as above. But Rheinland leads to category Rheinland and the article about Rheinland is a bit weird.
I made a couple of categories like Houses, "house names" and updated the article somewhat.
If someone wonders I've been editing articles I have encountered to include links and putting the links into format that at least Hyung is forcing in ("First Caps Words")
[[Artcile Name|the link text]]
Please take a look at the discussion in the wiki help page about categories also, so we can move on with categories aswell.
EDIT: 3 cheers for Igiss for blocking Rick the Dick.
RE: Inconsistency: Yeah I'm aware of that. What I would like to see is something written up for the other houses as well. The Rheinland one was written by Praetyre and I think its awesome, but we need to find a way to:
1) not tread on Pratyres toes and hard work
2) make those pages similar in whichever form we (as a whole) choose
3) Have something similar for the Outcasts and Corsairs as well.
The whole Rheinland bit (Das Wilde, Nomads, Rheinland) is at a level far above the simplicity of Liberty, Bretonia, and Kusari and was written by Praetyre; and I'm reluctant to remove all that info, because it is actually quite good. But I have no idea what we can write for the other houses to bring them up to that level either. So until Praetyre and the rest of us can come to an agreement, I'm happy to leave it as is and just not touch it. Procrastination FTW! Not really, but I'm not really in a hurry, and i've been focused on the ships and naming of things (and background trying to keep everyone consistent - some of which haven't liked me doing that.:)).
One solution to the House pages inconsistency is to leave the page "Federal Republic of Rheinland" as a separate page, and link "Rheinland" to an overall page like the other houses. And from that overall page we can link to "More indepth information of Rheinland", or something. So that those who just want to know what systems are part of Rheinland, can do so without all the extra info, and those who want the extra info can click on the "More Info" part.
One thing to note: Having the Darmstadt Depot, Stuttgart, Rheinland even if the Rheinland points to the wrong place is a good thing. It means we can make one change and all things that point to Rheinland will still point to that one thing. So having it point to the wrong thing right now, is still ok and one of the reasons why Im not in a hurry to fix it.
I'm going to get Praetyre into this discussion as he has been a major contributor to the wiki as well, and especially when it comes to the Rheinland data/factions/houses.
Also the In-Universe, Out of Universe styles needs discussing as well. I don't know what it is and Praetyre is using it (on many things I think.)
RE: Piping links: Thats all good. Thanks for doing that. You do realise that we can set up redirects? Having redirects are a good thing as it allows multiple user styles and words linking to the same page, without everyone learning how to do piping.
RE: Categories: Yes. I think overarching categories, Liberty, Rheinland, Outcasts, Corsairs, Bretonia, Kusari, is a good idea. Then underneath those we can have various other categories to break down the areas that articles fall into. This also relates to the Rheinland work that Praetyre has done, but before we actually change anything just yet I'd like to sort out the direction that we are heading with those categories, with the main wiki editors so that we are working together.
RE: Rick: Please keep it clean. I know he was being annoying, but theres no need to call people names.:)
Looqas, Klaw, Blodo, Praetyre, I'd like to thank you for all that hard work you've done so far. It's great to see the Wiki coming alive! :D:cool:
Wiki - Feedback Thread - Praetyre - 08-08-2008
The main reason I put "Federal Republic of Rheinland" is since Rheinland refers to 3 things (the sleeper ship, the Empire and the modern day Federal Republic), and my knowledge/lore writing on Rheinland is better than on the other Houses.
As for IU/OOU (in universe/out of universe), I'll give you an example:
Let's say we have an article (the title doesn't matter) about Niklaus Rheinhardt, the Gottkanzler of Rheinland.
An OOU article might read like this:
Example OOU Article Wrote:Niklaus Rheinhardt is an RP character of Virus, created in [year]. He is one of the most powerful Rheinland characters, and one of the few examples of roleplaying a head of state within the Discovery community.An IU article might read like this:
Example IU Article Wrote:Gottkanzler Niklaus Rheinhardt is the head of state of the Federal Republic of Rheinland, commander-in-chief of the Rheinwehr and deity of the Kirche die Grunnen Alders.
Mr Sondgerath came up with a good idea, which I've expanded upon, to have seperate articles in some sense. For example, compare this OOU, more practical and game oriented article with this IU, more RP oriented article.
Wiki - Feedback Thread - looqas - 08-08-2008
First the comment on OOU - IU thing. I see what you mean (I hope). At least what comes to your Chancellor example. IU seems to better suited to a wiki. OU is a bit too clinical. We seek RP immersion to some extent in the Wikis, right?
BUT in the ship article which is all about statistics like the ships example you gave I think the IU here is just plain confusing. Especially the complement bit. I think it's ok and good to have the IU approach in individual ships people have like Varyag, but to depict the whole class of ships it's just confusing. I assume that the both articles are talking about the same ship Rheinland Battleship, right?
These are not thorough analyses of the methods, just a gut feeling.
Yeah. I did know that there are redirects and we will have to do them. Maybe we just go that way, but the problem arises in ambiguous names. I'd like all the writer's at least know the piping technique so that they will refer to a correct article while they are writing. Otherwise I'm cool with using just:
[[Corsairs]] in the text. I also think we need to get redirects from these words to "Corsairs" article just to demonstrate the point: [[corsair]], [[Corsair]], [[corsairs]]
The same goes for system names. Example Article "Sigma 19 System"
[[Sigma-19 System]]
[[Sigma-19 system]] <-- I doubt no one uses this format
[[Sigma-19]]
[[Sigma 19]]
[[sigma 19]] <-- I've not seen anyone using any system names written in small, but it's a possibility. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
[[sigma-19]]
The redirects with base/stations/faction names will be even more complex I reckon.
I propose that we make a major use of redirects as it gives people more freedom. But people should be aware of the potential hazards of ambiguous names, like New York (Planet and System name).
On categories:
I've been trying to figure out the categories for factions. I think a pretty nice way to do it is to use Lawfuls, Outlaws (and what other for Zoners and mercs etc?) as the main category.
- Lawfuls
- Police
- Military
- Police
- Outlaws
- Criminals
- Revolutionaries
- Criminals
- Terrorists
- Neutrals
So anyone has any ideas on this matter?
On 'Rickster:
I'm normally a person who really refrains calling people anything, but I believe a person whose sole contribution is to destroy other people's work deserves a bit scorn and verbal abusement. But I'll leave that at that.
Wiki - Feedback Thread - Praetyre - 08-08-2008
Both articles are discussing the same class of ship. I don't see why you think the "Complement" is confusing, considering Rheinland battleships can carry fighters. And technical info can actually be quite useful even in quite mundane writing, for example if a character is admiring a capital ship in a parade or needs to know it's capabilities (obviously, if the battleships main guns are subkiloton, they aren't going to be doing much in the way of urban devastation).
I would have:
Liberty governmental organisations
Liberty-based legitimate nongovernmental organisations
Liberty-based criminal organisations
Wiki - Feedback Thread - chovynz - 08-08-2008
looqas Wrote:First the comment on OOU - IU thing. I see what you mean (I hope). At least what comes to your Chancellor example. IU seems to better suited to a wiki. OU is a bit too clinical. We seek RP immersion to some extent in the Wikis, right?I think a little tiny bit of RP on the wiki is barely acceptable, but factual information is more important. With the Wiki "clinical", RP-clean information is a good idea and the RP can be left to come alive on the forums and ingame.
looqas Wrote:BUT in the ship article which is all about statistics like the ships example you gave I think the IU here is just plain confusing. Especially the complement bit. I think it's ok and good to have the IU approach in individual ships people have like Varyag, but to depict the whole class of ships it's just confusing. I assume that the both articles are talking about the same ship Rheinland Battleship, right?
Praetyre Wrote:Both articles are discussing the same class of ship. I don't see why you think the "Complement" is confusing, considering Rheinland battleships can carry fighters. And technical info can actually be quite useful even in quite mundane writing, for example if a character is admiring a capital ship in a parade or needs to know it's capabilities (obviously, if the battleships main guns are subkiloton, they aren't going to be doing much in the way of urban devastation).I agree that it's confusing. I dont speak any German, so that IU page is just confusing to me - as much as I respect the amount of work that it must have been. We are an English speaking server and people get sanctioned for speaking other languages, so why would we make our wiki in a different language? Would you like to see Kusari have their own Japanese translated wiki pages as well? I wouldnt as it quadruples the amount of work if we also do that for the spanish corsairs and whatever the hell the Outcasts use. Then theres the whole French and Nomad things as well.
How I get around that ingame is I would think most ships have a translator installed on the computers. And the nomads dont speak so they dont need translators.
But as for Wiki articles being in universe as the first thing you see? I think it's too much. And where do we draw the line? To do IU versions of everything related to Rheinland would be a staggering amount of work. I'm suggesting that we lay off the IU style for now, and concentrate on getting the basic information into the Wiki. After that is done, THEN we could look at raising IU pages of each of the relevant pages. OR alternativly, we can provide an link to IU pages from the main OOU style that everyone first comes to.
looqas Wrote:These are not thorough analyses of the methods, just a gut feeling.I should point out that the Wiki capitalises the first letter, no matter what word it is it is. So [[Corsairs]] IS the same as [[corsairs]].
Yeah. I did know that there are redirects and we will have to do them. Maybe we just go that way, but the problem arises in ambiguous names. I'd like all the writer's at least know the piping technique so that they will refer to a correct article while they are writing. Otherwise I'm cool with using just:
[[Corsairs]] in the text. I also think we need to get redirects from these words to "Corsairs" article just to demonstrate the point: [[corsair]], [[Corsair]], [[corsairs]]
looqas Wrote:The same goes for system names. Example Article "Sigma 19 System"I agree they should be aware of the potential hazards, but if we agree on the format to be used now, then we can point people towards a "guide page" or document that is the main "ruler" to how things should appear. And redirects will be used so that editors can use whichever one they want to, as best suits the text block they are writing. We could just let them know that "New York" will redirect to "New York System", or to take the example further, "New London" will redirect to "New London System", and if they mean the planet then they should use "Planet New London" instead.
[[Sigma-19 System]]
[[Sigma-19 system]] <-- I doubt no one uses this format
[[Sigma-19]]
[[Sigma 19]]
[[sigma 19]] <-- I've not seen anyone using any system names written in small, but it's a possibility. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
[[sigma-19]]
The redirects with base/stations/faction names will be even more complex I reckon.
I propose that we make a major use of redirects as it gives people more freedom. But people should be aware of the potential hazards of ambiguous names, like New York (Planet and System name).
However, I think the Omegas, Omicrons, Taus and Sigmas have no need for "System" at the end, because there is no base named as such, and so could stay just as Omicron-90. The real problem occurs when multiple places are refered to by the same name - Planet New London, or New London System. Etc.
And because of these two differences (which is a Microsoft shortsightedness) we straight away, have an inconsistency problem to deal with. If Igiss agrees I would suggest a name change to every planet or base that has the same name as the system they are in. But that's a lot of work, and I suspect it wont happen anytime soon - if at all.
looqas Wrote:On categories:
I've been trying to figure out the categories for factions. I think a pretty nice way to do it is to use Lawfuls, Outlaws (and what other for Zoners and mercs etc?) as the main category.But it's pretty problematic since not all factions are necessarily outlaws in all systems. I think we should make the categories to House referenced like Liberty Outlaws, Liberty Lawfuls and neutrals even though there are problems with those also.
- Lawfuls
- Police
- Military
- Outlaws
- Criminals
- Revolutionaries
- Terrorists
- Neutrals
Praetyre Wrote:I would have:
Liberty governmental organisations
Liberty-based legitimate nongovernmental organisations
Liberty-based criminal organisations
Yes Categories are problematic. And I would like to sort out with you two (at the very least) what we are doing there. I think Praetyres got something there, but im frightened by the amount of Categories that represents. I think looqas has something as well, but I dont see how it would fit, like as you said, some house factions ARENT considered criminals in RP, but are to the other houses. Kusari comes to mind here.
I would have
- Liberty
- Everything Liberty
- Everything Liberty
- Rheinland
- Everything Rheinland
- Everything Rheinland
- Bretonia
- Everything Bretonia
- Everything Bretonia
- Kusari
- Everything Kusari
- Everything Kusari
- Corsairs
- Everything Corsairs
- Everything Corsairs
- Outcasts
- Everything Outcasts
- Everything Outcasts
Wiki - Feedback Thread - Praetyre - 08-08-2008
The Mjolnir article is perfectly understandable to English speakers. Would it bother you if an article on the Spitfire called it a "Luftwaffe craft"? Having certain, very specific terms in the native language isn't making our Wiki foreign any more than calling the Farmer's Rights Movement the "Landwirtrechwegung" or calling a Roman military leader a "Centurion" is making Wikis foreign.
That said, roleplay articles aren't necessarily less informative than OOU ones. Look at Wookieepedia, for example, where they list the history of characters like Carth Onasi but not their class/specialty/statistics/etc, except as relevant to the plot.
I think there's huge potential for excellent IU articles regarding Rheinland, and to me seperating the articles makes for an arrangement satisfying to people looking for RP information or simply browsing throughout Discovery's history (as opposed to searching through the forums and slewing through old pages to find a character's background) and people looking for things more in the vein of "Are Werewolves really that much better than Bloodhounds?".
There are a lot of articles regarding each category. Trying to place the Liberty civilian government and it's personnel, the LSF and it's personnel, the Army and Navy and their personnel alongside the local Outcast cells, the numerous substructures of the Liberty Rogues and Lane Hackers would strike me as cluttered, and it gets even worse when you try and place all this alongside everything from the Texas Incident to the Colorado squatters movement to Zone 21 to the Battle of Mitchell.
The other solution I'd propose is to set up a second wiki for RP research or game-related stats, but that would probably take a good amount of construction effort.
Wiki - Feedback Thread - chovynz - 08-08-2008
Just to clarify what I meant, I do love the IU page there, and the style. What is confusing to me is the locations part. (unless it was continued that the English translations comes after.)
RWK Krieg (Grosseadmiral Krieg)
RWK Moselle (Braunschweig)
RWK Strausberg (New Berlin)
I just dont think it should be the first thing that people see when they click on a link to go to a page. Nor do I think those pages should get their own Mjolnir-class battleships Category.
I often search by categories and if we bring the IU pages in that is going to bring in a hello of a lot of categories.
Perhaps we can do a mix of my category method and Praetyre's and that will address most of the category problems?