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+---- Thread: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? (/showthread.php?tid=116767)
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Titan* - 06-18-2014
Also You cant hit Battleship with light mortar everytime...
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Haste - 06-18-2014
(06-18-2014, 08:57 PM)Trogdor Wrote: Assuming the Cruiser has CMs, the BS cannot reliably hit it with anything, and the BS can't run because the Cruiser has CD.
- Switch to a weapon group. I personally use group 4.
- Set all weapons to inactive in this group.
- Put battleship cerbs, primaries or both in a separate group.
- Bind a [Fire Weapon Group X] key where X is the group you put cerbs/prims/both into.
- Switch to the 'No weapons at all' group.
- Press the [Fire Weapon Group X] key to fire.
- Aim based on instinct, not on the garbo crosshair.
- Profit.
Projectiles will have a spread as wide as the weapons of your choosing are apart, so you're unlikely to hit with all guns at once. This shotgun-like spread can be beneficial (even just a few cerbs/prims consistently hitting a cruiser will hurt it a lot) or detrimental depending on the type of cruiser you're facing and the type of evasion they use. You can also switch to a group with less range than the range you're currently fighting at (say, your secondaries) instead of an empty group to cause your projectile to converge at the maximum range of this weapon group, instead of not converging at all. You don't want a crosshair though, it ruins everything.
This is how battleships go from being sitting ducks against small kiting things to quite effectively murdering them. Learn something new every day, right?
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Trogdor - 06-19-2014
(06-18-2014, 10:59 PM)Snake Wrote:(06-18-2014, 08:57 PM)Trogdor Wrote:Quote:Uhm... No a Single Cruiser with a single Mortar can't take out a BS it takes way too much energy aswell as Missiles so no you'd need 2 Cruisers in order to destroy a BS OR you'd need realy skill to constantly fire at BS and use the right time.
Depends a lot on the Cruiser but, let's talk worst case scenario, which means you're a light Cruiser with 95,000 energy regen/sec. And we're talking about Cruiser vs. BS, so let's ignore core capacity and only focus on energy regen.
That means you can fire the light mortar every ~10 seconds. Therefore, 75,000 shield damage / 10 seconds = 7500 shield dps.
BS shield regenerates at 4800 hp/sec.
Therefore, even in the worst case scenario, and even if the Cruiser misses some shots, the Cruiser will eventually win. Heavier Cruisers, and especially Battlecruisers, will win more easily. Assuming the Cruiser has CMs, the BS cannot reliably hit it with anything, and the BS can't run because the Cruiser has CD.
Removing Cerbs from BS/Cruiser will do nothing to alter this. This above scenario is what really needs to be fixed in order to see more variety in BS loadouts, which seems to be the point of this thread.
Uhm no dude, when you shoot a Mortar almost 60% - 70% of your energy goes down you can't constantly shoot Mortars, the BS has enough time to take you down before you can regen so much, you can't take down a BS with a Light Mortar so quick bro, it takes realy long as the BS Shield is regening by then.
Did you even read anything I wrote? I just explained the exact process by which even the lightest cruisers can kill a battleship. Even the lightest cruiser will regenerate enough energy to fire the mortar every ~10 seconds, and the DPS is still high enough to overpower the BS's shield regeneration. Even if the cruiser misses, he will eventually win.
And, no, the BS doesn't have any opportunity to take the cruiser down (without resorting to lame tactics), as I'll explain below.
(06-18-2014, 11:53 PM)Haste Wrote:(06-18-2014, 08:57 PM)Trogdor Wrote: Assuming the Cruiser has CMs, the BS cannot reliably hit it with anything, and the BS can't run because the Cruiser has CD.
- Switch to a weapon group. I personally use group 4.
- Set all weapons to inactive in this group.
- Put battleship cerbs, primaries or both in a separate group.
- Bind a [Fire Weapon Group X] key where X is the group you put cerbs/prims/both into.
- Switch to the 'No weapons at all' group.
- Press the [Fire Weapon Group X] key to fire.
- Aim based on instinct, not on the garbo crosshair.
- Profit.
Projectiles will have a spread as wide as the weapons of your choosing are apart, so you're unlikely to hit with all guns at once. This shotgun-like spread can be beneficial (even just a few cerbs/prims consistently hitting a cruiser will hurt it a lot) or detrimental depending on the type of cruiser you're facing and the type of evasion they use. You can also switch to a group with less range than the range you're currently fighting at (say, your secondaries) instead of an empty group to cause your projectile to converge at the maximum range of this weapon group, instead of not converging at all. You don't want a crosshair though, it ruins everything.
This is how battleships go from being sitting ducks against small kiting things to quite effectively murdering them. Learn something new every day, right?
I don't see how this helps. A cruiser mortar-kiting you is going to stay at the max range of his mortar (4k). Cerbs (3.5k) and Prims (3k) aren't going to be able to reach the cruiser no matter how you arrange your weapon groups or bind your keys. And this is even when both ships are stopped.
Yeah, sure, if the cruiser is foolish enough to allow you to get into cerb range, or if the fight starts at close range, you'll smack him down hard. But assuming the cruiser knows the mechanics and the fight begins with both ships far apart, he will stay within this advantageous zone wherein he can hit you, but you can't hit him. You can try cruising to catch up, but he will either cruise away from you, or thrust away from you and be able to keep firing while your powercore regenerates from 0.
There are also two more factors to consider.
1) If both ships are moving (the bs is being kited), the BS's weapons' range is even less effective, because by the time the cerb/prim projectile reaches its maximum range, the cruiser has moved further away. The cruiser is getting further away from where the projectile is fired. Contrariwise, the cruiser's weapons are more effective because the battleship is advancing, getting closer to the point where the weapon was fired. If the cruiser pilot is able to aim based on intuition, without the aid of the red +, he could actually be further than the mortar's listed 4k weapon range, and still hit the BS.
2) The above is further compounded by the fact that a weapon's range is FROM THE TURRET. If your BS is, for example, 1k long (valor-sized), and your turrets are in the middle of the ship, your weapon range is 500m less than if your turrets were at the front of your ship. Cruisers are less affected by this phenomenon because they are smaller.
I have only found 2 effective strategies for fighting cruisers, both undesirable because they're lame.
1) Uncloak behind them and unload at point-blank range.
2) Cruise into them and ram them. Then, drop cruise and move your ship such that you keep ramming into him while your core regenerates. Then, try to put a few shots into him before he gets away. Rinse and repeat.
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Lonely_Ghost - 06-19-2014
And don't forget, that some destroyers are capable of fighting BS with regulary guns, dancing around 1.2-1.4K from your BS. Check for example Tresher.
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Haste - 06-20-2014
(06-18-2014, 08:57 PM)Trogdor Wrote: I don't see how this helps. A cruiser mortar-kiting you is going to stay at the max range of his mortar (4k). Cerbs (3.5k) and Prims (3k) aren't going to be able to reach the cruiser no matter how you arrange your weapon groups or bind your keys. And this is even when both ships are stopped.
I'm sorry, but if a cruiser is kiting exclusively with mortars (and maybe pulses) well outside cerb range, you have to be pretty awful at maneuvering that battleship of yours to even lose your shields. The battleship I've flown most is the Marduk, so don't tell me it's because you fly a big battleship that you can't dodge mortars. Consider adding tiny little engine kills and maybe reverses into your mix so that the cruiser is forced to come closer or the fight will simply never end.
Oh, and nothing keeps you from getting a mortar or two of your own and firing those. One hit and you'll have done more to the cruiser than the cruiser will ever do to you without getting closer.
Alternatively, stick some pulses on your primary slots and fire those. You might not do hull damage, but the cruiser isn't going to like the idea of being deshielded and hit by one of your mortars.
Note: Yes, Cruisers are generally easier to fly and more effective, but blindfiring battleships do in fact make short work of the common cerb-using cruisers.
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - SnakeLancerHaven - 06-20-2014
(06-20-2014, 01:01 PM)Haste Wrote:(06-18-2014, 08:57 PM)Trogdor Wrote: I don't see how this helps. A cruiser mortar-kiting you is going to stay at the max range of his mortar (4k). Cerbs (3.5k) and Prims (3k) aren't going to be able to reach the cruiser no matter how you arrange your weapon groups or bind your keys. And this is even when both ships are stopped.
I'm sorry, but if a cruiser is kiting exclusively with mortars (and maybe pulses) well outside cerb range, you have to be pretty awful at maneuvering that battleship of yours to even lose your shields. The battleship I've flown most is the Marduk, so don't tell me it's because you fly a big battleship that you can't dodge mortars. Consider adding tiny little engine kills and maybe reverses into your mix so that the cruiser is forced to come closer or the fight will simply never end.
Oh, and nothing keeps you from getting a mortar or two of your own and firing those. One hit and you'll have done more to the cruiser than the cruiser will ever do to you without getting closer.
Alternatively, stick some pulses on your primary slots and fire those. You might not do hull damage, but the cruiser isn't going to like the idea of being deshielded and hit by one of your mortars.
Note: Yes, Cruisers are generally easier to fly and more effective, but blindfiring battleships do in fact make short work of the common cerb-using cruisers.
exactly
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - SnakeLancerHaven - 06-24-2014
Did some test runs and it seems BS Primarys are realy the heavy guns that could replace the Cerbs honestly, I even was able to hunt down Gunboats so particular I could be destroying Cruisers with Primaries too (actually I did that too, isn't realy a big challenge), srsly there is no need for Cerbs and fights make more fun with Primaries.
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - An'shur - 07-17-2014
I have ideas not solving Cerberus problem.
-More capacity for missiles, far more!
-And also bigger projectile range for missiles. Like some long range torpedoes with 15k range, with large yield, speed around 250 m/s and slow turning.
-New types of missiles and weapons in general.
-Players are able to click on another player only in range of 10k or below. What about making possibility of clicking on 17k? (adv.d.scanner), or 25k? (bs scanner). Or is it impossible due to Freelancer engine? I am thinking about scanners because I am thinking about longer range for missiles.
-I would keep current missiles as they are. My long range idea is not meant to be replacement, but addition.
-Also reduce energy requirement of missiles and torps by 25% (ok.. 3 missile LABC spam heh...)
-And my long range torpedo idea? Of course for all cap classes, gunboats too. Lets speak about battleship long range torp. It would be expensive, it would be able to fire one missile per 30 seconds. Missile would be able to chase thrusting ships, but it's maneuverability would be bad, quite ok to chase battleship, but not smaller ships. This would make it to be most effective against bases or battleships, not against cruisers.. only lucky shots. Countermeasures would be useless. Important think would be it's damage. I am thinking about something able to turn off cruiser shield in single blast and destroy non-armored cruiser too. It's energy requirement.. half a core or more would be fine not? It is meant to be long range. So short range weaponnary won't be used in this artillery battle. Also with my ideas, one battleship won't be very effective, but image three or more mmm Worse than LABC spam right?
Another idea
Long range electromagnetic guns, gauss cannons
-This weapons would fire metal projectiles with extreme speed (like solaris), eating ineffective amount of energy and having low refire rate.. Range would be 25k or even more. It's energy requirement will make it battleship weapon only. But this is not solving Cerb problem and cloak. If someone decloak on someone's back. He will insta him with everything in hand.
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Vredes - 07-18-2014
(06-17-2014, 10:19 PM)Lonely_Ghost Wrote:(06-17-2014, 10:10 PM)SkyNet Wrote:Quote:http://i.imgur.com/B6SZhMw.png
It is unpossible to dodge missiles anymore. It's like you would fly a battleship.
How about we reset the old cap stats from 4.85?
YES
DONT TOUCH THE MISSILES!
Thats why they are missiles and not throwing kebap. The missiles are meant to track and hot no drift at the first turn.
RE: Removal of Cerberus Turrets or Replacement? - Zen_Mechanics - 07-18-2014
I think most would agree that battleships against cruisers are no fair match, though people will always come up with reasons why it is. None the less, even they could atleast agree that battleships need a variety of weapons that actually effective toward smaller sized vessels.