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+--- Thread: Hellfire Legion (/showthread.php?tid=146970)
RE: Hellfire Legion - Durandal - 01-14-2017
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: When you compare the IDs side by side, even without taking their diplomacy into account, the Legion ID comes up as almost wholly superior.
See previous RHA/Blood Dragon/Council statements. Someone is always going to be top dog and I won't be an apologist for that.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: Engage permissions are broadly similar across the board - by the wording, Hellfire can engage anything with an unlawful or quasi-lawful ID by default, as well as anything with a lawful ID classed as diplomatically hostile. Xenos, meanwhile, can simply engage anything that isn't DSE, Ageira, or Universal and Cryer or Interspace depending on who you talk to
Fun fact, the HF cannot openly shoot junkers, whom we despise, unless they're not flying transports or hauling contraband. And how often do you see a Junker not flying a transport? And just because we have such a wide set of engagement options doesn't mean we do, you know that as well. Ultimately 99.9% of the time both the Xenos and HF are shooting only lib lawfuls, hunters, rogues, and maybe outcasts. That's not a very wide spectrum.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: The Xenos have piracy up on the Legionnaires, who can only demand contraband, but in practice the Xeno ID's capability to pirate is almost entirely useless. It forces extremes which aren't practical in any RP sense at all - you either let traders you catch go with everything, or demand they drop it all, which is tantamount to just engaging them right off the bat. I don't foresee people queueing round the block to experience an interaction that literally results in nothing but a net loss for them. When I'm out pirating on a GC or something similar, for example, I always find it a nice idea to let particularly wordy or otherwise enjoyable-to-encounter traders off the hook with nothing but a lighter credit demand, but the Xeno ID can't even do that! No, instead they're forced to make some sort of piddly demand like "give me just a bit of your cargo", which can then be hauled back to Ouray for what's usually the default sell price. Xeno 'piracy' is an absolute joke - the line is pretty much superceded by being able to treat transports as combat targets anyway.
There is no reason for Xenos not to be able to demand credits, take that up with the admin team. Cargo piracy is and always has been a joke and probably will be until Discovery is no longer running on an engine to which we lack the source code.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: The 'can engage transports freely' line is extremely powerful, and winds up giving the Xeno ID similar engagement permissions (within their ZoI) to the Nomad/Wild factions. In return, Hellfire gets the pretty redundant 'can engage Liberty lawfuls anywhere', which winds up being useless 99% of the time. In the end, Xenos definitely have an edge with regards who they can shoot and when, but I don't think it's unfair to argue that Hellfire isn't that far behind.
Similar engagement perms? If I had a penny for every time we couldn't shoot a Junker, Outcast, or Rogue pilgrim liner or pirate train I'd be bloody rich.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: Neither can ally with any lawfuls (which is BS, by the way - I don't think GRN vs LN has ever happened with Xenos around, but the option of allying with the Libertonians in that regard should have been considered, at least), so they're equal there, and neither can use the bigger transports in the mod.
Oh come on, do you really think the admin team would sanction either faction for shooting GRN w/ lib lawfuls? If so it hasn't happened to us yet.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: Hellfire has a larger ZoI by one system - they trade Shikoku for Kansas and Inverness. This might be outdated considering that the 'systems bordering Liberty' have wiggled around a bit, but as the ID text stands that's how it is.
Why would you even factor this in? Inverness doesn't hold a candle to Shikoku in relation to what the Xenos do.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: When it comes to tech and ship usage, though, Xenos are run so far into the ground it's not even funny. Hellfire can use any ship class in the mod, whereas Xenos are limited to just snubcraft. In Liberty of all places, this is a death sentence when you run into the larger and more aggressive fights. Legion players are offered the ability to field capital ships against the larger threats thrown at them, whereas the Xenos have to make do chipping away at things with a swarm of Rocs. The only saving grace here (although it's almost rather insulting, but it is what it is) is that the Xenos can at least leech off the Hellfire's VHF and fighter guns by way of their 100% tech cell. I don't think I've ever seen anyone on the HF side of things eager to strap Black Widows and Suntigers to their Prosecutors, though.
Let's go back to the days when the Legion still had battleships, still had cruisers, still had gunboats, and weren't allied with you guys. Would that be preferable? Like, is the fact that the two factions are allied and the bigger one is capable of providing fire support not even worth mention? Or we could just give you bigger ships and have to deal with people like Mr. Woad.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: I haven't even gone into the areas of diplomacy, faction lore, or other miscellaneous assets (the part where the Hellfire Legion represents two NPC factions rather than one at this point, ever since Solar Engineering got the axe so Guadalajara could be colonised) yet,
Expect to see this with more factions in the near future who won't take any criticism for it because they aren't us.
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: but on the whole I really don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Hellfire and its ID comes uncomfortably close to being Xenos Mk2 in terms of gameplay. The roleplay is different, sure (believe me, if I didn't find the exact idea of playing a Xeno interesting from an iRP perspective I wouldn't bother putting up with the sh*tfest that is actually trying to play them), but that's about it. Anything you can do in the game, though, you could probably have done quicker and more easily with the Hellfire ID.
If you're going to pitch this argument, then you need to do the same for every single faction in the game which has been overshadowed. Funny how you'd petition for the GRP's removal but rather see the HF knocked down to size for example, right?
(01-14-2017, 02:45 AM)Omicega Wrote: The story and roleplaying differences are not enough to salvage the Xeno ID when the gameplay mostly consists of abusing traders who barely speak any English to begin with and being ganked to high hell by everything other than the Legion, often times in gunboats, cruisers, or battleships which are almost impossible to break through with the dire state of snubcraft versus multiple caps these days.
As stated earlier, you're allied to the only native Libertonian unlawful faction with battleships, but I guess that particular fact doesn't count for anything and the days when Xenos had no allies and the HF was just as big was, uh, somehow better or something. All in all, if someone wants to roleplay a Xeno they'll use a Xeno ID. If they don't they don't. Not every faction is on equal footing, and I'd expect you to be smart enough to understand that.
Do I think there are some changes that could be made to the Xeno ID, such as ones involving standard piracy and gunboats? Absolutely. Can I make them? Nope.
Overall that post was useful for outlining problems Omi, but offered up no solutions, nor did it do a great job at grasping the bigger picture in terms of diplo, etc.
Edit: a word
RE: Hellfire Legion - ASimpleMan - 01-14-2017
Durandal you basically wrote a dissertation.
*claps*
RE: Hellfire Legion - The Syndicate Leagues - 01-19-2017
(01-14-2017, 06:28 AM)Durandal Wrote: See previous RHA/Blood Dragon/Council statements. Someone is always going to be top dog and I won't be an apologist for that.
Top dog InRp? Sure. Top dog in terms of an objectively better ID, ZOI and Tech balance? Hell no. All house factions should be ballanced rock-paper-scissors against each other. They all need a niche the others cannot fill, not objective betterness.
Edit: It appears I've posted it on my faction account. Fair enough - the point works well for Unioners too. Most of Rheinland's unlawfuls have been historically ignored by indies and faction players because the Hessians are, objectively, the most permissive ID. This isn't the Hessians' fault, just the position they've been evolved into. Various changes over the years have improved the distinction for other Rheinland factions, but it remains a challenge for those of us in the theatre. People want to play something with diversity and mileage, not the same activity generation source on the same ships. If you're like me, and only play a few IDs over lots of ships, you want lots of possibilities.
The idea of an Alpha dog is not conducive to inter-faction team play either.
Often the onus of change is put on the official faction leads. The perk system is one way of effecting that, but it's a bit slow. For instance, if you need three changes desperately, it takes six months. However, Officials are just established Unofficials. I believe that the IDs should be ballanced independently if there's no Official faction in power for that ID to request changes.