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+--- Thread: More cruise speed for Barge (/showthread.php?tid=201945)
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Saronsen - 02-28-2024
hate to say it but unless haste takes a personal interest in something you want fixed, youll never see it become reasonably usable
i wish i could say i was being defeatist but 5.0 is literally the physical manifestation of the timeless meme "WHO BALANCED THIS, HASTE?"
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Kauket - 02-28-2024
What the hell are you using your Barges for?
Barges are still genuinely useful, especially if you don't want to deal with constant f2ing mindlessly on transports - AND you have that extra defence of not being vulnerable to three gunboats in a short sprint as opposed to transports. They're more ideal for supplying pob with short distance runs and filling up ore into pobs / filling up with earhart materials. I wouldn't use them for trading, unless I was exceptionally off my mind.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Couden - 02-28-2024
(02-28-2024, 11:09 AM)Vlad Wrote: [quote="Couden" pid='2325054' dateline='1709068767']
[quote="Chenzo-" pid='2325053' dateline='1709068528']
[quote="Karst" pid='2324916' dateline='1708964207']
[color=#ff77cc]A 5k has 1/6th the cargo capacity of a Barge.
Snip
It's easy to say that. There are players who don't want to sell "broken" things but just try to find a way to fix or make them like they used to be.
I just offer to buy a barge from a barge owner because I am looking for a filling up mine Ship Collection, nothing more.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Prysin - 02-28-2024
The barge could have its cruise speed increased by 25ms and impulse/thrust/reverse by 10ms without changing the CSU notably much. But it would feel a lot better to use.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Haste - 02-28-2024
(02-28-2024, 02:06 PM)Prysin Wrote: The barge could have its cruise speed increased by 25ms and impulse/thrust/reverse by 10ms without changing the CSU notably much. But it would feel a lot better to use.
I suspect if we were to buff it, a better buff would be so reduce its cruise charge time. Increasing top speed by that significant a margin makes it better in those areas where it already is really good - regardless of what people in this thread are attempting to "prove" by showing comparisons between transports taking tradelanes and the Barge, or unusually short routes which also just so happen to favor the Barge in comparisons.
If anything, I would be more inclined to let it cruise substantially sooner (after hitting Shift-W) but to slightly tone down its maximum cruise speed to keep it in check in long routes, if required.
The Barge, as of this moment, both in theory and in practice, is good at long cruise-based routes. It is better there than 5ks are. It is also very well suited to any one-way routes and any kind of Earhart-related resource gathering op. Or anything mining related where you're jumping one way to then only have to fly the way back, really.
Yes, the Barge is notably worse in House space where lanes are present, and in very short cruise-based routes. That is correct. It is also unlikely to be changed, even though we can mitigate the second "issue" somewhat by reducing cruise charge time. It's extremely long anyways, and has no real good reason to be that long at this point.
Oh, and can we please stop pretending there weren't any real world tests performed for the pre-patch Barge? I personally ran a few common routes and made anywhere from 1.5 to 2.0 times as much as a 5k could running the same route. And I really wasn't particularly good at flying the Barge. I want whatever people are having that claim a lane-capable wasn't just an enormous upgrade over 5ks.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Sam101 - 02-28-2024
Just reducing charge time would be so awesome!!
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Prysin - 02-28-2024
(02-28-2024, 02:56 PM)Haste Wrote:(02-28-2024, 02:06 PM)Prysin Wrote: The barge could have its cruise speed increased by 25ms and impulse/thrust/reverse by 10ms without changing the CSU notably much. But it would feel a lot better to use.
I suspect if we were to buff it, a better buff would be so reduce its cruise charge time. Increasing top speed by that significant a margin makes it better in those areas where it already is really good - regardless of what people in this thread are attempting to "prove" by showing comparisons between transports taking tradelanes and the Barge, or unusually short routes which also just so happen to favor the Barge in comparisons.
If anything, I would be more inclined to let it cruise substantially sooner (after hitting Shift-W) but to slightly tone down its maximum cruise speed to keep it in check in long routes, if required.
The Barge, as of this moment, both in theory and in practice, is good at long cruise-based routes. It is better there than 5ks are. It is also very well suited to any one-way routes and any kind of Earhart-related resource gathering op. Or anything mining related where you're jumping one way to then only have to fly the way back, really.
Yes, the Barge is notably worse in House space where lanes are present, and in very short cruise-based routes. That is correct. It is also unlikely to be changed, even though we can mitigate the second "issue" somewhat by reducing cruise charge time. It's extremely long anyways, and has no real good reason to be that long at this point.
Oh, and can we please stop pretending there weren't any real world tests performed for the pre-patch Barge? I personally ran a few common routes and made anywhere from 1.5 to 2.0 times as much as a 5k could running the same route. And I really wasn't particularly good at flying the Barge. I want whatever people are having that claim a lane-capable wasn't just an enormous upgrade over 5ks.
reducing top speed is an issue of itself. atm, a cruising barge can slowly escape a impulsing battleship. Which is fair.
But if you drop it, even by just 10ms, you cannot ever hope to escape even the slowest ships ingame no matter how hard you try. Which is dumb.
Also i know you have a lot of feelings surrounding the barge, but to be fair man, i don't even imagine you try flying it much if at all. your balance suggestions sounds so insanely theoretical they border on being imaginary. I invite you to try fly one, in-game, on a live server.
Flying things on a test server with NPCs turned down or only your friends to bother you (or not) isn't going to reflect real usage. Nor real travel times. Nor will FL-Companion give you a good reflection of barge operations. You are one missed docking point, one NPC bump, one time getting stuck in asteroids from completely missing the profit margins suggested in FL-Comp. FL-Comp also cannot reproduce the RNG of a average barge run, it can only ever display a perfect barge run. Whereas it takes mere seconds to correct a 5k being bumped/stuck/missing docking point, it takes a minute or 5 to fix that in a barge. For each instance. Thus your calculations done in a perfect run only simulator will never, ever, be realistic.
Yes there are probably some really nerdy routes that can yield insane profits if abused. But if you can abuse it in a barge, you can abuse it in ANY size transport with greater chance of success and repeatability, and as such that is a econ issue, not a barge issue.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Haste - 02-28-2024
(02-28-2024, 03:39 PM)Prysin Wrote: Flying things on a test server with NPCs turned down or only your friends to bother you (or not) isn't going to reflect real usage. Nor real travel times. Nor will FL-Companion give you a good reflection of barge operations. You are one missed docking point, one NPC bump, one time getting stuck in asteroids from completely missing the profit margins suggested in FL-Comp. FL-Comp also cannot reproduce the RNG of a average barge run, it can only ever display a perfect barge run. Whereas it takes mere seconds to correct a 5k being bumped/stuck/missing docking point, it takes a minute or 5 to fix that in a barge. For each instance. Thus your calculations done in a perfect run only simulator will never, ever, be realistic.
That's a lot of assumptions. Testing doesn't have to be done in some sort of sterile environment. You can just do it on live. Which is where back then you would've made a steady 200 million credits an hour on average if you weren't either the unluckiest person alive or incredibly incompetent at lining up a Barge with lanes.
In all likelihood that Battleship example will cease to be relevant in 5.1 anyways, so it really isn't going to age well. A Battleship going 150 is going to eat a Barge alive, much like a Battlecruiser already can. The unfortunate fate of a ship that is an extreme outlier.
Reducing charge time helps the ship be more useful on shorter routes. Increasing top speed makes it better at long routes, where the charge time is already less of a factor, and both theoretical and practical "tests" will show that the Barge can already outperform a 5k. Is it a huge deal? No. It's intentionally balanced that way. What people seem to be missing is that the Barge isn't ever going to be balanced for a lot of different situations. It will always underperform compared to 5ks if a ton of asteroids are involved - though I've found that avoiding them isn't too terrible depending on the route and field density. It being so slow kind of helps in that regard. It will always underperform if lanes are (significantly) involved. Duh, it cannot take them. The scenario it is balanced around is cruise-based routes. This is where, objectively, the ship starts edging out an advantage compared to 5ks. It just does. You can either accept that fact or deny it, it doesn't matter as it remains a fact.
Buffing it incorrectly - such as by increasing top cruise speed - will make it outperform 5ks by simply too large a factor. So instead, we should consider buffing it correctly: with reduced cruise charge time. Again, if it's considered necessary. I personally don't think it'd hurt much. The only concern is making it too good in those areas it's already solid, hence why I wrote that we could also consider pairing such a buff with a reduced top speed.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Stewgar - 02-28-2024
Just remember that these tests that you are determined to mock with your air quote text was performed in the free time by people without a title. They provided a rational argument and supported it with facts and numbers. If you ever wonder why people don’t take you or this community seriously anymore, I hope you look back at moments like this.
RE: More cruise speed for Barge - Vlad - 02-29-2024
This game already don't have players. Nerfing things around because you think you're a God of balance would make the things even worse. It's nothing personal, Haste. Just take it as "constructive criticism". I am sure you worked hard for this mod but some changes are not justified to be honest. You keep saying barge would break the economy... What's the point with the economy? What if some players fly barges for making credits? What if the barge is better than a 5ker? Just give them the opportunity to be. There is no "broken economy". Players would make insane money, so what? I don't see what's wrong with that. Barge was perfect before. There are players leaving or give up flying some kind of ships because they getting nerfed (see battleships, battlecruisers, gunboats...)
I'd say asking community for future changes would be great. And by "community" I mean the players who actually play the game everyday
