+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+---- Forum: Discovery Mod Balance (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+---- Thread: Godslayer Balance Essay (/showthread.php?tid=205905)
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Synts - 12-03-2024
Based on many opinions, I have come to the opinion that why are bigger ships nerfed all the time, it turns out that most snub PVP Ace's are shit on big ships and they just can't figure out why VHf or LF can't kill bigger ships. Okay, you wanted to give smaller ships a chance to kill bigger ships but it should take at least 6-8 LF, VHF and at least 1 hour to kill an average cap player and against a good cap player even more time. If these headless LF players really want to attack a big ship, then fine but they still have to sweat a lot for it. At the moment, a average VHF player kills a normal GB player 1v1. GB's are now completely useless. Snub's should be afraid of GB's but not the other way around. 4 VHF players will kill BS without even having to put in the effort. This is just a big joke.
NB: I'm not even a cap player. Very rarely do I log into a ship bigger than a cruiser.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - L1ght - 12-03-2024
Sir, how to put this in the kindest way possible... That is the most insane take I've ever heard.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Lythrilux - 12-03-2024
(12-03-2024, 01:25 PM)Synts Wrote: Based on many opinions, I have come to the opinion that why are bigger ships nerfed all the time, it turns out that most snub PVP Ace's are shit on big ships and they just can't figure out why VHf or LF can't kill bigger ships. Okay, you wanted to give smaller ships a chance to kill bigger ships but it should take at least 6-8 LF, VHF and at least 1 hour to kill an average cap player and against a good cap player even more time. If these headless LF players really want to attack a big ship, then fine but they still have to sweat a lot for it. At the moment, a average VHF player kills a normal GB player 1v1. GB's are now completely useless. Snub's should be afraid of GB's but not the other way around. 4 VHF players will kill BS without even having to put in the effort. This is just a big joke.
NB: I'm not even a cap player. Very rarely do I log into a ship bigger than a cruiser.
Being in VC with these 'Aces' during cap fights I can assure you they know what they're talking about. For the ones that are developers, it's their job to understand every class.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Eternal.Journey - 12-03-2024
(12-03-2024, 01:25 PM)Synts Wrote: Based on many opinions, I have come to the opinion that why are bigger ships nerfed all the time, it turns out that most snub PVP Ace's are shit on big ships and they just can't figure out why VHf or LF can't kill bigger ships. Okay, you wanted to give smaller ships a chance to kill bigger ships but it should take at least 6-8 LF, VHF and at least 1 hour to kill an average cap player and against a good cap player even more time. If these headless LF players really want to attack a big ship, then fine but they still have to sweat a lot for it. At the moment, a average VHF player kills a normal GB player 1v1. GB's are now completely useless. Snub's should be afraid of GB's but not the other way around. 4 VHF players will kill BS without even having to put in the effort. This is just a big joke.
NB: I'm not even a cap player. Very rarely do I log into a ship bigger than a cruiser.
You do realise that the snub aces are mostly aces in cap classes too, right? I mean, that is one hell of a claim to make with zero proof on your part.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Synts - 12-03-2024
(12-03-2024, 02:53 PM)Eternal.Journey Wrote: You do realise that the snub aces are mostly aces in cap classes too, right? I mean, that is one hell of a claim to make with zero proof on your part.
Did you even read what I wrote? I bet you didn't. I just wrote my OPINION of what others who play bigger ships have said. I'm not claiming anything. And I've seen with my own eyes how 4 LF/VHF ganking BS and killing him, without taking much time. And what's your opinion on the fact that bigger ships are so shitty?
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Eternal.Journey - 12-03-2024
Point:
(12-03-2024, 03:03 PM)Synts Wrote: Did you even read what I wrote?
Counterpoint:
(12-03-2024, 01:25 PM)Synts Wrote: Based on many opinions, I have come to the opinion…
Edit: Did you, yourself, read your own words?
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Haste - 12-03-2024
(12-03-2024, 12:55 PM)Chenzo- Wrote: Ignore my personal situation here- that’s the mentality of the head developer Haste. Fine tune everything to his own hideously unbalanced view, suck any fun from anyone else then gaslight the player saying it’s a skill issue..
I've literally spent the last four years nerfing myself and other players who have invested a lot of time into Getting Good™. This is a fact. Both if you objectively look at the changes made to the mod (shield hitboxes the average joe can actually hit, mechanics that protect against instakills, easy access to far higher velocity guns, upscaling smaller fighters and bombers, reduced strafe force further increase hit-rates) and if you look at outcomes.
Since we all know anecdotes are the best types of evidence, however, I also have one of those to go with my Cold Hard Facts™. Yesterday I flew my GRN| Lynx to Leeds. There, I fought two CDI Light Fighters (Arrows, specifically): MadVillain and Jammi. Neither of these players is currently at the top of the PvP food chain. Running 900 m/s Railguns, however, they were able to do very respectable damage to me in a 2v1, and eventually downed me with the help of a third ship that didn't involve itself until one of the two Arrows was taken down. Now, I'm sure I'm at least a little washed, but a few years ago I would've expected to take down three ships there and walk away with over half my regens remaining, probably with the help of some cheeky Mini Razor (+ Wardog) action.
The fact that I didn't, however, is a good thing. It means our changes are doing what we hoped they would. Now all that remains is convincing more players to slap on high velocity class 1s by default.
As for the rest of your post, I'm just going to copy what I told you on Discord:
Quote:DEFILER does 720 shield damage for 368.8 energy per shot, twice a second, for 1440 DPS, at 600 m/s and 540 meters range.
QUASAR does 808 (+12%) for 750 energy per shot (+103.8%), one and a half times per second, for 1212 DPS (-15.8%), at 650 m/s and 535 meters range.
You wanted to compare these two guns, claiming the QUASAR would come out of the comparison favorably. It doesn't. QUASARs are cool but horrendously inefficient. Pretending power usage is a non-factor while this thread is the last thread in this subforum to see any activity seems a little silly to me.
I am aware that you used to have objectively insanely broken DEFILERs. However, you also had them in an era where the Bergelmir was a Medium Bomber. "Things were different back then" -- by which I mean that balance was simply absent. A Sabre with effectively 9 guns (due to the ludicrous shield DPS of DEFILERs) still likely wasn't as powerful as a boxing Odin. However, we've moved on since, and balance works with much thinner margins, so having guns that are just straight-up busted doesn't work anymore.
DEFILERs provide a lovely niche of punchy, low refire pulses that pair very well with shotguns. They're not exceptional, and they're definitely not bad. They're just balanced. You're asking for something explicitly not balanced, and I'm just not convinced we want that in the game.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Culbrelai - 12-03-2024
(12-03-2024, 01:25 PM)Synts Wrote: Based on many opinions, I have come to the opinion that why are bigger ships nerfed all the time, it turns out that most snub PVP Ace's are shit on big ships and they just can't figure out why VHf or LF can't kill bigger ships. Okay, you wanted to give smaller ships a chance to kill bigger ships but it should take at least 6-8 LF, VHF and at least 1 hour to kill an average cap player and against a good cap player even more time. If these headless LF players really want to attack a big ship, then fine but they still have to sweat a lot for it. At the moment, a average VHF player kills a normal GB player 1v1. GB's are now completely useless. Snub's should be afraid of GB's but not the other way around. 4 VHF players will kill BS without even having to put in the effort. This is just a big joke.
NB: I'm not even a cap player. Very rarely do I log into a ship bigger than a cruiser.
Insane take as a cap main since 4.82. Multiple snub aces are very good on caps, E.g. Haste. Also, have you considered how this would affect fleet battles with multiple battleships? It'd take a whole day to kill a whole fleet with snubs? Lol. Caps have always been weak to snubs, the best solution is to prefer and bring mixed fleets which if you are referring to the recent Tohoku battles, the Order did not bring mixed fleets. Form into a ball and flak spam them to death, ideally around a Battleship with EMP flaks + terminators (or dual gattlings, please un-nerf them, thanks)
Docking bays are also excellent to use for allied snubs, letting them effectively get away with restocking mid battle if the enemy team is not paying attention. I've lost to the same thing - in the Omega-3 siege one of the days the Bretonian/Rhienland forces brought mostly snubs and a few carriers and wiped the floor with our larger cap numbers because of the restocking. You have to focus the carriers in these situations.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Backo - 12-03-2024
Observing this thread is kind of wild. We have people who claim they are not the best at PvP (something which requires knowledge and skill) and right after that they acutely dismiss people who are part of the top PvPers (something which requires knowledge and skill) regarding balance and insist they have a better idea on how the game should be balanced (something which requires knowledge and skill of how PvP works). It does remind me a bit of this curve.
RE: Godslayer Balance Essay - Chenzo- - 12-03-2024
(12-03-2024, 03:33 PM)Haste Wrote:(12-03-2024, 12:55 PM)Chenzo- Wrote: Ignore my personal situation here- that’s the mentality of the head developer Haste. Fine tune everything to his own hideously unbalanced view, suck any fun from anyone else then gaslight the player saying it’s a skill issue..
I've literally spent the last four years nerfing myself and other players who have invested a lot of time into Getting Good™. This is a fact. Both if you objectively look at the changes made to the mod (shield hitboxes the average joe can actually hit, mechanics that protect against instakills, easy access to far higher velocity guns, upscaling smaller fighters and bombers, reduced strafe force further increase hit-rates) and if you look at outcomes.
Since we all know anecdotes are the best types of evidence, however, I also have one of those to go with my Cold Hard Facts™. Yesterday I flew my GRN| Lynx to Leeds. There, I fought two CDI Light Fighters (Arrows, specifically): MadVillain and Jammi. Neither of these players is currently at the top of the PvP food chain. Running 900 m/s Railguns, however, they were able to do very respectable damage to me in a 2v1, and eventually downed me with the help of a third ship that didn't involve itself until one of the two Arrows was taken down. Now, I'm sure I'm at least a little washed, but a few years ago I would've expected to take down three ships there and walk away with over half my regens remaining, probably with the help of some cheeky Mini Razor (+ Wardog) action.
The fact that I didn't, however, is a good thing. It means our changes are doing what we hoped they would. Now all that remains is convincing more players to slap on high velocity class 1s by default.
As for the rest of your post, I'm just going to copy what I told you on Discord:
Quote:DEFILER does 720 shield damage for 368.8 energy per shot, twice a second, for 1440 DPS, at 600 m/s and 540 meters range.
QUASAR does 808 (+12%) for 750 energy per shot (+103.8%), one and a half times per second, for 1212 DPS (-15.8%), at 650 m/s and 535 meters range.
You wanted to compare these two guns, claiming the QUASAR would come out of the comparison favorably. It doesn't. QUASARs are cool but horrendously inefficient. Pretending power usage is a non-factor while this thread is the last thread in this subforum to see any activity seems a little silly to me.
I am aware that you used to have objectively insanely broken DEFILERs. However, you also had them in an era where the Bergelmir was a Medium Bomber. "Things were different back then" -- by which I mean that balance was simply absent. A Sabre with effectively 9 guns (due to the ludicrous shield DPS of DEFILERs) still likely wasn't as powerful as a boxing Odin. However, we've moved on since, and balance works with much thinner margins, so having guns that are just straight-up busted doesn't work anymore.
DEFILERs provide a lovely niche of punchy, low refire pulses that pair very well with shotguns. They're not exceptional, and they're definitely not bad. They're just balanced. You're asking for something explicitly not balanced, and I'm just not convinced we want that in the game.
Damage per hit vs statistics ‘damage per second’ only applies to those who can hit at a high percentage rate.
Actual shot landed on an enemy vs ‘potential damage across more shots’ is a huge difference.
A gun which does 720 shield and I think 50 hull damage per shot vs a gun which does 800 something shield and 700 something hull damage is wildly better. Shotgun loadouts fire one or two volleys per a few turns, the quasar will always, always be a much better gun.
My main point in our conversation on the Defiler topic was that it was robbed entirely of its RP’d purpose- To deliver astonishing levels of shield damage, next to no hull damage, next to no range & low speed and requiring huge levels of energy- Advanced Inferno technology(inferno’s also robbed of their actual purpose now)
By making them consume less energy and have a better ‘statistical damage per second output in shield damage’ despite the fact it does less damage per shot robs the gun of what it was- Make a different code with those stats if you want- it’s not a Defiler.
This is more of a rp/balance issue as opposed to direct balance issue- I used the example to highlight your elites mentality with ‘wool over the eyes, b-sh1t baffles brains” techniques you use to try and justify actions.
The higher part of your post literally just highlights that you’ve nerfed things - we know, it’s what everyone is complaining about.
You also have been directly responsible for many good things like fixing hitboxes etc I’m sure.It doesn’t take away from the distinct lack of balance seen in every other over complicated joy sucking change in mechanics.