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+---- Thread: Bounties (/showthread.php?tid=39830)
Bounties - Zeltak - 05-14-2010
' Wrote:No need to shout. You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
This.
Question is how much of a rephack would you get for killing someone, I figure you kill, say a Kruger ship, every lawful Rheinland lawful faction would hear about it. So we could probably try to base it off listed allies.
My own experience of working both sides is that sooner or later one end gets worked a little too much and becomes red and chafed while the other end ends up looking disappointed.
Ehem. Mate. What if, a Mercenary is attacking in self-defence? So the other guy knows you will get rep-hacked and he will simply attack you and let himself get killed so your char will get fracked up rep.
Yes I know I'm always the guy who looks for stuff people can abuse since, you know, people will.
Bounties - Agmen of Eladesor - 05-14-2010
I actually don't have a problem with your proposal about what could happen to reps if it's feasible, Dusty.
What I have a problem with is the whole attitude of pirates in general on here. I blew up in a thread a while back about it. I know, as Athenian mentioned, that there are specific groups and people that do a great of pirating as it should be.
There's a heck of a lot more of them that simply want to pirate whoever they want, whenever they want, with no consequences whatsoever. One of the things that drove me out of Liberty in the first place was the whole pirate raids in New York where they'd kill any lawfuls and then proclaim that they owned the system - which is a complete crock.
You want the ability to come up to any player, at any time, and tell them 2 million or die - and then you have the audacity to complain when someone either tells you no, or tells you that no, how about YOU are going to make ME 2 million credits richer.
Now, I can understand a certain bit of the posting thing - why aren't people posting to collect the bounties they're using as an excuse for PvP. Well, partly because the bounty boards ARE used as an excuse for PvP - but let's not forget WHY the bounty boards were made in the first place. Oh, that's right - the ID for bounty hunters got nerfed ... because the pirates complained that they were getting attacked by the bounty hunters.
Hell, we could almost completely get rid of the bounty board other than for some really special ones ... if we'd simply change the ID back to where, just as pirate ID says; "Can demand credits or cargo from traders and unallied smugglers or factions " we let the bounty hunter ID read "Can hunt pirates and unlawfuls in alliance with the police factions of the houses."
You know that bounty hunters are supposed to be allies with the police factions, don't you? Oh, did that minor detail from vanilla slip your mind?
Instead we're stuck with this "Can fulfill lawful bounty contracts," because for us to do anything else is considered PvP abuse... by the pirates. Anyone remember back last year? There was a two week period when the bounty hunters could only shoot in self defense - because we didn't have a bounty board up and running then, the ID had been nerfed pathetically, and we were really wondering if our hard work for months before was worth it, because we were getting the brown end of the stick.
You'll get the feeling that I'm not too keen on listening to too many complaints from any pirates about being hunted down. Welcome to consequences, people. You want to be unlawful and pirate people for money, cargo, and for YOUR blue message fix when the trader doesn't cooperate? Seriously - we can almost tell whenever any 'nerf the bounty hunters' thread shows up that someone on the pirate side got blown up.
That does not mean I won't listen to, or take action as an admin, if there is a legitimate issue. It simply means I'm tired of listening to the whining. What's good for you guys is certainly good for us.
Bounties - Virus - 05-14-2010
' Wrote:Maybe compuslory reputation for mercs depending on employer and rep-fixing/ship "adjustment" for mercs who try to play all sides of the fence. Real life mercs generally don't demonstrate the same freedom and money-hungry sensibility that in game ones do. I mean to say, many famous mercenaries only worked for employers of the same political and ideological leaning.
The main problem with this is... It's terribly poor money working for one side. Because after less than a week, they usually either A) stop paying, B) stop caring, or C) start killing you. In reality, you can make a 15-year contract with a government and work for 15 years without having to worry about going broke or having nothing to do. Here, that doesn't happen. And no one wants to hire mercenary companies anyway. They just put out bounties. (Or hire the MM~ to do nothing xD).
' Wrote:Also, have any of you even thought about pitting one merc faction against another? Make it worth wild for one merc faction to shoot another up. This means there are two merc factions not blowing you up.
Reavers kill the MM~.
Agmen, I don't see how any of your post relates to the discussion at hand at all. Sounds like you're saying "Pirates don't like being killed by Mercs" and "bounty hunters need an ID change Q_Q" ...
Bounties - ugliestmoose - 05-14-2010
Quote:Question is how much of a rephack would you get for killing someoneWhat about a small drop in your rep with the faction whose pilot you just killed. Just like when you kill npc's and your rep drops with their faction - but make it more pronounced, like dropping a full square on your reputation bar. So you can kill a few Red Hessians, let's say, before you figure they would catch on and become hostile to you. I don't know if this is possible, though.
Also, out of curiosity, why are flhook ideas so bad? Is it just because of the kill detection?
Bounties - Baltar - 05-14-2010
@ Athenian:
The primary reason I recall for creation of the bounty board and the nerfing of the BH ID was primarily because of the Bounty Hunter Battlecruisers (typically in groups of 3) orbiting Yanagi, Crete and other such locations. They'd wait for pirates to emerge and then blow em up before they had a chance to say, "I give up, you win." That's what I remember from a year or two ago. It was most unpleasant. Since the ID got "nerfed" we don't have BHBC's everywhere. BUT ... the problem we have today is that EVERYONE can claim a bounty. One solution I see is to remove the bounty collection capability form ALL ID's except the Bounty Hunters. Make these changes: 1) The bounty board should be limited to Bounty Hunters. 2) The Mercenary ID should be for supporting the houses in the wars between themselves and escorting traders and such. If we did these 2 things, we might be able to eliminate the bounty board requirements altogether. The trouble we have right now is that everyone (regardless of what ID they have) are hunting bounties.
Regarding my experience ... I'm definitely NOT one of those pirates you speak of that go about shooting at everything. I am very selective in who gets pirated. The Black.Pearl (now retired) was more of a Robin Hood type than anything else. I think I averaged maybe 5 or 6 acts of piracy a week. And I even went for a complete year without pirating a single ship. I even used the Black.Pearl to conduct humanitarian delivers of food, water, medicine and other needed supplies to Rogue bases just to do something different. Then I tried the prisoner exchange thing with Liberty lawfuls ... that got me nowhere. With the bounty system as it stands now, I was bountied regardless of what I was doing. I'd be sitting there getting a suntan, watching people fly to and fro and listening to all the banter going over the comms ... then whamo I'm getting shot at. If having a Pirate ID is all it takes to justify killing me then we can forget role play and just convert this server to PVP. Well don't worry ... Black.Pearl no longer exists ... got tired of trying to do something different with people. Too many out for the kill message.
@ Dusty: Yeah ... might just have to create a new thread with the specifics you challenged me to come up with. I did kinda identify the problem without really providing a solution. I'll have to take to pen and paper and think a bit harder as to what solution I think would work. But for starters I think limiting bounty collection to the Bounty Hunter ID would fix a lot of the problem.
@ Agmen:
Please don't throw me in with those pirates you consider PVP-whores because I'm not one of them. Maybe one solution would to make all generic ID's (Merc, Pirate, Freelancer, etc) admin provided. Many of us have a solid history of decent piracy role play. Just as there's plenty of good role play among bounty hunters. Personally I think the BHG| have done a great job representing the bounty hunter role play. Mercs ... I've got a couple (one in MM~) ... should be regulated a bit more (like getting rid of the ability to collect bounties). Mercs should be supporting the war effort or escorting traders and such. Most of your "independent" navy, police, security forces, military, etc are by definition mercenaries already. If they are not part of the official faction, they're mercs (my 2 creds on that). As I said in my initial post ... I think the bounty board (or at least bounty hunting) is very important to this server. But I think the current situation has the pendulum way to far to one side. As I said, we need balance here. I've got no problem having a bounty on my head ... If I've actually done something to deserve it.
Using only my ID to justify attacking me is the same as profiling in real life. In many cities across the USA, if you wear a red shirt, you're gonna be stopped by the cops ... because they're gonna assume you're a gang member. Well if all you have to wear is a red shirt because you didn't do laundry ... oh well. Is that right? Some say yes and some say no. If I were king for a day ... I'd change all ID's to tractor beams of various colors and force role play based on IFF. After all isn't it your "reputation" that we're really supposed to react to? Sure would get rid of all those complaints about Freelancer IFF'd pirates wouldn't it? Then the rules could change to reflect the IFF. If you are acting counter to your IFF then you're violating a rule. I know IFF's are hard to get sometimes ... but put bribes on primary bases that get you the IFF you need. By the time you're level 40 you should have the proper IFF.
@ Virus: Yes there's problems with the Merc ID because of what you mention ... the pay problem. Which is why the Merc ID should be specially assigned by admins. Those mature enough to role play a merc should be allowed them ... but not those that use it as an excuse to shoot anything that moves. This one and the Freelancer ID are used for just that purpose. A mercenary and a freelancer can do pretty much anything they want and still be within their ID's limitations.
Bounties - kuth - 05-14-2010
' Wrote:Hell, we could almost completely get rid of the bounty board other than for some really special ones ... if we'd simply change the ID back to where, just as pirate ID says; "Can demand credits or cargo from traders and unallied smugglers or factions " we let the bounty hunter ID read "Can hunt pirates and unlawfuls in alliance with the police factions of the houses."
You know that bounty hunters are supposed to be allies with the police factions, don't you? Oh, did that minor detail from vanilla slip your mind?
Instead we're stuck with this "Can fulfill lawful bounty contracts," because for us to do anything else is considered PvP abuse... by the pirates. Anyone remember back last year? There was a two week period when the bounty hunters could only shoot in self defense - because we didn't have a bounty board up and running then, the ID had been nerfed pathetically, and we were really wondering if our hard work for months before was worth it, because we were getting the brown end of the stick.
Really. I am not trying to piss you or Athen off, but both of you Q_Q about the BHG ID as much as Zoners QQ about everything else.
You are not the Sirius police. How about both of you take my suggestion I've made numerous times and roleplay.
Is it that hard for you, the guildmasters to get a contract with Liberty, Bretonia, and Rhienland to be allowed to freely hunt in their territories? I highly doubt it is. I am unsure of your status in Kusari forgive me.
How about the Guild sets something like MercNet up for itself?
I am all for the BHG killing, mauling, ****ting in my ceral as a pirate when I am in House space. What I don't like to see is a BHG pilot trying to shoot me up in Omicron Theta where no house has a bounty on me. Which is exactly what will happen if you get the ID change you want.
Bounties - chovynz - 05-14-2010
' Wrote:I am all for the BHG killing, mauling, ****ting in my ceral as a pirate when I am in House space. What I don't like to see is a BHG pilot trying to shoot me up in Omicron Theta where no house has a bounty on me. Which is exactly what will happen if you get the ID change you want.
Hang on, that sentence doesn't make sense. If you have a bounty on you, you have a bounty on you, no matter where you are.
Bounties - Zeltak - 05-14-2010
By limiting the allowance of taking Bounties to only Bounty Hunter ID you effectively destroy a lot of groups.
Reavers
Mandalorians
Children of Conviction
SMP
Just to name a few.
This is not the solution to any problem that you may see. Personally I don't see a goddamn problem as it is now only that the House Authorities are too lazy to FR5 the necessary Mercenary Groups/People so that they can't run amok without getting hostile to the respective NPC Groups and due to the fact that many Mercenaries have the tendency to abuse their neutral NPC Status. I know the Reavers personally have made some mistakes here and there, not saying we are perfect but as far as I know we have tried to be hostile to the ones we should be.
As for this "Rep-Hack" idea, I think it's both good and bad. Bad for the options of abusing it, good because it can fix a lot of problems.
Agmen, allowing the BH ID to actively help the Lawful Authorities without getting payed is not needed at all. That is not what the Bounty Hunters are about. They do it for pay. They provide a service, just like mercenaries. The only difference is that the Bounty Hunters are an organized guild, have their own stations to operate from, a set of ideologies and they have a common history. But all of this does not justify them to act as Vigilantes who have big ships.
Regardless, I do not see how your post has any relevance to the topic at hand or function as a reply to anyone who have posted here. In fact I believe you just used this thread as a platform to spread your whine about the Bounty Hunter ID, but that's just me.
Bounties - kuth - 05-14-2010
' Wrote:Hang on, that sentence doesn't make sense. If you have a bounty on you, you have a bounty on you, no matter where you are.
Trying checking the terms of the bounties, mate. Some are only valid within certain space.
Bounties - Virus - 05-14-2010
' Wrote:@ Virus: Yes there's problems with the Merc ID because of what you mention ... the pay problem. Which is why the Merc ID should be specially assigned by admins. Those mature enough to role play a merc should be allowed them ... but not those that use it as an excuse to shoot anything that moves. This one and the Freelancer ID are used for just that purpose. A mercenary and a freelancer can do pretty much anything they want and still be within their ID's limitations.
Making things "Admin assigned" is counterproductive. Admins don't want to deal with it, and no one wants to submit requests to admins for simple things like this. There are almost 100 people registered to Merc Net. And there are more Mercenaries out there than just those. It's just too many people to dump onto the Admins.
As for Merc/Freelancers doing anything they want, a Mercenary or Freelancer apparently can't ask for a bribe...
That said, I'd also like to disagree with your suggestion to remove bounty collection from Mercenaries.
The Reavers (whom I always represent when it comes to Mercenary ID discussion) are independent contractors (by our own definition). We'll do what you want, when you want, for a price settled in advance. This could mean killing a specific person, fighting a war, escorting, dancing, distracting(hinthintsmugglers), or collecting bounties. However, no one is hiring Mercenaries outside of a bounty-system style contract--kill x person get paid x credits.
And I rather like it that way. Escorts, while I'm willing to do them, are usually dreadfully dull and/or underpaying and work best when you know the people you're flying with. Lump sums are no fun because no matter how effective we are, we get paid the same. No obligation to put in that extra effort.
Our group works because we are able to take bounties. People who fly and help shoot get paid. Those that don't fly, don't get paid.
We don't want to be Bounty Hunter Guild pilots. We're independents, drinking our way into success.
I feel like I just lost my topic and went on a rant there, but whatever.