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+------ Thread: Harvester (/showthread.php?tid=7764)
Harvester - Ratchet - 04-15-2008
//I'm sure revealing it here would ruin what they have planned. Most people agree they have excellent RP so I think we can trust him that they have a plan. I think he also offered to send it via PM to certain people.
//I think the question to be asked is what will this faction bring to the server. I think it takes an easter egg (Gammu) and brings it into the real Freelancer. Gammu may become a true home to all sentient AIs and not just a funny planet the developers decided to put in.
Harvester - mrlance - 04-15-2008
Quote:Most people agree they have excellent RP so I think we can trust him that they have a plan. I think he also offered to send it via PM to certain people.Not a question of trust about RP, it is a question of rules and respect of the established factions without forcing them into a path they do not want to take. Zoner militarizing, Junker working for machine or anything else.
Imagine that a group of players decide to RP apes from primus, and do a remake of "the planet of Ape" . Their first declared goal is to take control of the Kappa system... What harvesters will do ? Did they expect to see Apes coming after them ? Whatever, the apes have a big fleet with corsairs by their side and using corsair ID. The players behind are excellents RPer and can justify any of their actions with a secret plan you should not know. The Apes decide that machines are close to Junker so they will attack on sight all Junkers. Remember the Apes have a secret RP story behind.
Ask them what will you offer to the community ? eh ? A new race : intelligent Apes with a very good RP and trust us we have a very good story behind. The Apes should rules Sirius because their have evolved and adapted to this savage galaxy. The Apes are the new masters of the Corsairs, yes they are.
Please say yes to the new Ape faction as it is the first Ape faction :P(oh yes i forgot the chimp are already half apes, no offence)
See what i mean when i say gamemastering now ? As a player on a RP server i want to know the interaction rules with the Machine not their secret plan or the entire scenario. I'm sure machine Alliance could be official but not with this proposal under this form.
Harvester - worldstrider - 04-15-2008
' Wrote:This is beginning to sound like the most 'neutral' of the 'pirates' against the most neutral of Sirius ? Both factions
actually go out of their respective ways to keep their collective heads below the radar ...
Why would either The Junkers, or The Zoners, go out of their way to spoil the status quo ?
Hoodlum
FYI--as an involved Junker running a currently unofficial faction that gets along with Harvesters, I have instructed our members to collaborate with the Harvesters but not to intervene with them agains the Zoners--which seems smart and Junkerish to me.
Scornstar and I have worked out the RP ethos of Junkers-Harvesters and it is quite in character for the Junkers.
They have no wish for conflict or direct involvement but find advantage in collaboration--and avoid conflict through it as well with the Harvesters.
And why is it a given that the "alpha code" must be found. What if their is none?
It is like the quest for perfection by the Borg or Nomad in ST--it is never ending--or can be.
Like searching for "God".
It sets a great tension for the Zoners.
I don't see Harvesters dominating the 'verse (haha--have you seen them fight?)
As to alignment with the core concept of FL--I think the monkeys and 'bots were put there as the "next storyline" the developers intended to work on. Why not now?
Harvester - me_b_kevin - 04-15-2008
' Wrote:As a player on a RP server i want to know the interaction rules with the Machine not their secret plan or the entire scenario. I'm sure machine Alliance could be official but not with this proposal under this form.
i'm kinda puzzled by this comment, i would think you would interact with them how you think your character would react to a mysterious machine known to kill people. they've been around long enough now for people to have heard about them around Sirius.
i'm an outside party and from what i gather people seem to be worried that this is going to become a PVP whore faction. which, i'm guessing, is why everyone wants to know the long term goals.
i think it's exciting personally. its new & mysterious, i can foresee some great RP come from it.
Harvester - Jinx - 04-15-2008
i have to agree here about the custom IDs. - we have a bunch of IDs that are at the very most "questionable" though established. - the harvesters have a full disco / FL basis and ... if their RP turns out to be good ( over a longer period ) - they should be granted an ID.
not from the start... but it should be put into consideration after some time. ( something like a trial period, but still a little treat / incentive for keeping up the good RP )
personally, i don t know whats involved in adding a custom ID ( about how much work it is ) - i don t think the harvesters are asking for their own NPCs... but just an item that won t get them into an "identity crisis" - cause most other IDs that are around do not fit.
a custom ID must not necessarily come with extra rights - ... simply an indifferent description of the faction and the usual limits applied to other factions. - so i would support them to get a unique ID after some time. ( before we say point blank that they won t get one ever )
Harvester - mrlance - 04-15-2008
Quote:I think the monekys and 'bots were put there as trhe "next storyline' the developers intended to work on. Why not now?
You use the world Tink, storyline. The next storyline is making the mod to evolve. To do so, everything must be taken in account, and especially the balance in the game. So why not now ? because the intervention of an external but crucial man the developer is required.
Quote:i would think you would interact with them how you think your character would react to a mysterious machine known to kill people
No one prevent the story of Machine to continue. And, as a player roleplaying with three Junker guard, Agnus Dei members, or Lance family, i like the whole mystery and i have already interact with harvester on the server and taken their existence and RP in account on the forum.
But as a player of the community, trying to give few hints for the faction proposal in order to be validated, i need to read somewhere a custom rule about their ID, even if it not official. A simple resume of their origin and past history will be enough to help a new player to understand a part of the story.
A clear stated, pinned rule, a simplified RP guideline that anyone can understand to start interaction. That is all.
Harvester - Ratchet - 04-15-2008
' Wrote:Not a question of trust about RP, it is a question of rules and respect of the established factions without forcing them into a path they do not want to take. Zoner militarizing, Junker working for machine or anything else.
//So forcing people into a path they do want to take is bad right? Establish factions do that everyday here and its accepted. How can a faction ban all mercs or freelancers or indie cap ships from their space? What about the Phantoms? I'm supposed to fear them because their RP says so? Doesn't that force people into a path? This kind of stuff happens all the time here and its ok because its from established factions. That still doesn't make it right.
//I'm not sure about the name. Machine Alliance. Only because there are machines out there that do not want to kill humans. Ratchet would want to join a machine alliance but not the harvesters. So perhaps a new name that focuses more on the harvester goals?
Harvester - me_b_kevin - 04-15-2008
' Wrote://So forcing people into a path they do want to take is bad right? Establish factions do that everyday here and its accepted. How can a faction ban all mercs or freelancers or indie cap ships from their space? What about the Phantoms? I'm supposed to fear them because their RP says so? Doesn't that force people into a path? This kind of stuff happens all the time here and its ok because its from established factions. That still doesn't make it right.
good point.
also the militarizing of the Zoners was happening long before the Harvesters came along. in my travels the Zoners i run into are either in a Train transport or a Zoner Destroyer.....been that way for a long time now. of course my play time is limited, but that still is bad when i'm only on a small amount of time and mostly see it
' Wrote://I'm not sure about the name. Machine Alliance. Only because there are machines out there that do not want to kill humans. Ratchet would want to join a machine alliance but not the harvesters. So perhaps a new name that focuses more on the harvester goals?
i'm not sure about the name either. if the Harvesters are the extension of the main brain, why not call the whole thing one name. For lack of a better example, i'll point toward the Borg reference.
S.A.M. = Singular Autonomous Mind
or something like that
Harvester - worldstrider - 04-15-2008
My point in "why not now?" wasn't an endorsement of the specifics of how the Harvesters will or should be played but was meant to address that if a player can find an undeveloped aspect of the game--like the monkeys or robots--why not play them as part of RP?
It's not more risky to be a machine faction than a Zoner or Junker one. It all still boils down to whether or not it is balanced RP.
If we "perfectly" play our factions, we will behave perfectly as an npc--that isn't what RP is about. If that is the goal, we simply match up equipment to npc ships and form on an npc flight and wait for npc chatter to tell us what to do.
The designer won't be available--ever--to resolve this yet we are still stuck with a planet of monkeys and another of robots.
There is never going to be a perfect consensus either and there are no players appointed as final arbiters so players have to suggest general things and then try them out after some consideration I think.
In my mind, any faction idea is viable and doesn't really need "developer approval" if it doesn't:
--contradict the stock game faction (as in Hogosha that ally with Junkers or Outcasts with Corsairs)
--use implausible equipment or faction mixes (Liberty Police with Corsair and Outcast weapons)
--introduce non-standard game elements that force others to incorporate them into them into their play (for example, a magic commodity to make your ship undetectable and force all others pretend it is too)
--redefines an existing stock faction in a way that forces other players to play that faction differently with their own characters so for example, I can't "create" a race of genetically superior Junkers who have overthrown Junker society and
formed it in a new direction that makes all Junkers play that way)
--create ridiculous story lines that are alien in their entirety with FL and can't be intuitively responded to by other players without coaching or instruction.
For the most part, if a faction doesn't do these things, there aren't many other reasons to try to forbid its existence.
The Harvesters "create" an "Alpha Code"--but it is ambiguous and intangible. They state they have defined areas of conflict with Zoners--why not? The Zoners are free to remain disinterested pacifists and simply run from Harvesters. Other players can create machine RP as constructs from Gammu that have differing programming imperatives and therefore have nothing in common with Harvesters so the machine Alliance doesn't define how other players have to play inhabitants of Gammu.
To me it seems a viable idea. I understand the consideration of ships and weapons--but the fear of an "unbalanced agenda" in RP itself seems weak. I could eye any faction I disliked that way and never want to allow them to do anything.
The police in Rheinland can "ban freelancers" as part of their faction etiquette but then they can't force freelancer characters to comply--they can only try. It's only if they get it made a server rule that "freelancers cannot go to Rheinland" that it becomes imbalanced.
Just some thoughts.
Harvester - ScornStar - 04-15-2008
' Wrote:Well Scorn, as you're talking about a machine alliance... is there any superglobal goal within the machine alliance?
Example: the ultimate goal of the Harvesters is the retrieval of the Alpha Code. Okay... as elgatodiablo said already, the Harvesters will get it some day. What next? Destroying all kind of organics? Drifting in the Omicron systems, chasing Nomads?
This is a very hard argument, which has to be clear before creating a machine alliance.
Personally I think, the machine alliance should act more like the Borg from Star Trek. They have a goal which can hardly be reached. (perfect cybernetic organism)
So the first thing before the faction creation should be the determination of an ultimate global goal for the alliance.
Obtaining the alpha code is not the ultimate goal of the Harvesters, it is the one most present and up front as I only tell members one goal at a time to simulate single mindedness. I do have goals for the future and I know its a crypitic and not so pleaseing responce now but my enemies list does specify Nomads as an enemy for reason older than man. Man will not like out live these reasons either. There is a goal that is unreachable yet driveing for FTGW which delegates task to the Harvesters. If anyone is concerned about it being thought out I can understand.
My best advise is have your faction leader request the data and let you know if they support it or, to place there doubts here to be adresses. If its flat out disagreement or anger PM me. Hope this helps a little.:)