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+--- Thread: Information about upcoming Zoner changes (/showthread.php?tid=112325)
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - E.T. - 03-01-2014
Doc guess you did read my post about removing other caps if not all of them. Sure it makes no sense for factions like img, and a lot of other ones to have an own shipline (why did borderworlds shipline exist for?) its a problem if you add more and more.. Now you see for example factions having a wider range of ships to use.. (I guess what the community wanted in the past). Now if factions like img get cap ships to fight off corsairs and outcasts.. While if I see the repsheets they have in many cases less hostiles then others. Point that to zoners.. They could use other ships too.. BUT they cannot open fire themselves.. They first have to inflict, so zoners are always in disadvantage already. Only exception is taz within Baffin. Where I remember the faction having high standards for it before lulzing around.
if the zoner shipline would be removed then the whole game would need a change. So many factions would get ships stripped. In general most people here know that so instead of suddenly say yes strip the zoner ships they fight for their own tech as well.. Its human to fight for the things you have, but do it in a constructive manner. Be glad at least jinx did put it out to let you all know. Instead of the devs just putting it trough and then people could only accept.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Trogdor - 03-01-2014
(03-01-2014, 09:21 AM)Jinx Wrote:Quote: Jinx has decided. Jinx rules all zoners from beyond the grave, yo.
yes, coin, - personalize the problem - give it a scapegoat - thankfully no one else can ever be the cause of the changes, cause everyone else has been such an model member of the community, upholding the lore and laws of each faction to the letter - untarnished, ever fighting for the best of it all.
there are reasons for it, they have been pointed out many times - but selective perception can be a female dog. mind you - ignorance is bliss.
if blame and insults is all you can do - do not expect any forthcoming - your behaviour is detrimental for whomever you speak for.
Jinx, by your own admission you are the instigator of this change.
If you are really against it, like I think you are, why aren't you standing up for the side that wants to keep the Zoners from being sidelined?
I think having the Zoners, or at least a subset of Zoners, vie for unification/expansion, economic/military power would be far more interesting than having the Zoners devolve into yet another trading faction, which we have a million of, or another Junkers, of whom one is plenty.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Enkidu - 03-01-2014
(02-28-2014, 02:19 PM)Ed- Wrote:(02-28-2014, 10:43 AM)Kazinsal Wrote:(02-28-2014, 08:10 AM)Trogdor Wrote: Indicative of an actual problem with the Zoners that should be addressed. We need an official faction that actually looks out for the overall wellbeing of the Zoners. What we have right now would be like if IC and the Junkers were the official factions of the Liberty Navy. TAZ and OSI only tend to their own roleplay (as they should) but this leaves a vaccuum.
This is indeed a serious problem. I am considering putting together half a billion credits to rectify this.
A certain zoner faction wanted to fill this empty void.
Didn't work good for it.
(Oh, I thought we were doing all right?) It doesn't make sense to force uniformity to a group when the entire premise of that group's existence is a lack of conformity.
(02-28-2014, 01:55 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Depends on how much actual wealth they can accumulate by trading with others "on the fringe." Those fringe dwellers don't necessarily have the same amount of cash that the Houses do, nor the populations. So, they're not going to be buying as much.
When supply is low due to practicality (such as present dangers of the edge worlds), demand value skyrockets. All Edge and border worlds groups have to go to more extreme means to obtain the bulk goods and commodities they utilise, and are thus going to open their pockets further. House industries are inundated with supplies, and can thus afford to pay rock-bottom rates (the same economic system operates in the real world).
Zoners already play a crucial role in edge worlds trading, so much so that the surrounding groups (OC's, Corsairs, Order, Guild), see a higher value in preserving the zoners through general neutrality and the exchange of goods, than merely walking in and stealing all of their assets and space stations. You give Zoners an even more powerful trading ability, and InRp they would be ridiculously powergamed.
By attempting to nerf us in this fashion, you would actually be bestowing us insane levels of Rp power, more than we require or even are entitled to possess.
(03-01-2014, 12:02 PM)LordVipex Wrote: That somebody dislikes a decision does not mean that it makes less sense.
Can you elaborate a little?
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Moberg - 03-01-2014
That somebody dislikes a decision does not mean that it makes less sense.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Jinx - 03-01-2014
i am quite sure ppl do not remember it
but i have been fighting for - and tried to justify the use of the big ships for zoners for years. - i have tried to apply the lore to them - write the ID cards in a way that in fact the nephilim is a battleship that is just sometimes repurposed to ALSO be a colonyship etc.
BUT - with the last years discussion ( and for gods sake - yes - what you have is the outcome of a long process - and also yes - years old discussions and events do matter ) - especially the zoner factions either abstained from fighting at all against the flood of people who wanted to change the zoners - or even supported those.
how often have i heard zoners say "if you have to resort to pvp in your battleships - you have failed at diplomacy AND failed as a zoner"
and still people mock zoners who RP as paramilitaries or active guards - or hunters. - and i am not talking about non zoners - but actual zoner players who consider those who USE the battleships to its potentials as "bad"
so what am i to think of it?
it seems that the "good" zoners want the following:
- colonyships and ships that can be RPed as a moral highground platform ... BUT
- are able to dish out damage and tank the damage of the best battleship around ( what?! )
- being able to make a lot of money - but hell, please do not consider us a trading faction!! - we are so much more
- being neutral - anyone who has made an enemy MUST have done something wrong - it can never have been the other way round - or how the diplomatic ppl tend to say "it takes two" ( which is bull - cause in order to make a conflict it actually only takes one - and unless its a swift defeat or a submission it can take two to continue )
so from the last years threads it turned out that the good zoners claimed that their battleships were used as
- guard barges ( but you failed as a zoner if you had to shoot things - yay )
- medical ships
- colony ships
- exploration ships
- show off / e-peen ships
- ships to increase hours by idling afk in space
- ships whos entire ingame RP consist of a brief "s'up" when you approach them
and so - the conclusion was - lets give them what they want. while at the same time trimming the zoner design down to a be more freelancerish, cause you know - the current nephilim is still based on the CIS frigate. so they become smaller, more low tech - less fancy - more utility like.
so where was gytrashes rant last year standing up for all zoners? - sorry, when i researched the old threads i only see ppl like tyrzul quoting sentence after sentence of the "bad zoners" and disproving the use of the battleship as a battleship. or sabre demanding "capships for official factions only!"
thats where it comes from
personally i love the zoner caps - and i wished to keep them - but you guys have made it really lonely to fight for them for the last years. look up the past years threads - you ll see me trying to justify them and fight for them - look up who else fights for them - how many faction leaders put in their weight for ALL zoners and not trying to bash down those who by their interpretation "misinterpret zoners".
that personal thing aside ( which is only a minor decision making point btw. the bigger point is that at some point - we simply had to revise the faction )
lets be clear
the zoner faction ( among others maybe or maybe no - thats not the point here ) has been blown out of proportion. - zoner factions may have justified it - but they failed doing to - maybe because they were not aware they had to - or cause they felt comfortable where they were, who knows - who cares.
changing it has been on the table SINCE 4.85 development - but the will to actually change it was often just forgotten due to more pressing things. - the [A], the smokeones, the corsairs, the ZA thing have gradually increased the matter and escalated it.
these incidents have also drawn a picture of "what the zoner community is like - what they fight for - what they want"
and it is so easy to demand "lets take away the big toys from the bad zoners and the indies - let them SRP them - leave it to the official factions" ( what a pile of bs again )
what we looked at was "what are the zoners ( the actual zoners )" - what do they represent - how do they work - ... then what are the zoner factions - what do they want - how do they present themselves ingame. - and then to look at possible development of the zoners - again the parent faction.
my own conclusion is
the actual zoner faction has not evolved much - i can elaborate that - but not in that post. - the zoner movement is very very different from any other faction ( including IMG or so - since they are sometimes compared to them )
however the PLAYER factions may have evolved - they are based on the zoner faction - but what i have to wonder is - how much are they actually zoners anymore?
so i would not be opposed to the playerfactions saying "hell, we do need battleships - and we do need this and that" - but they d have to do what any other custom faction does ... make a petition for a faction only shipline - or an extend of a shipline.
the actual "zoners" however would not change that much
heavens i even emailed chris todd and harald belker designers of lore and shipdesign of digital anvil about assistance for what they considered the zoners to be - so the design would adhere to vanilla as well as disco.
the root of the decision is so much more complex than "cause jinx wants it" - but if you want to think of it like that - so be it... doesn t change my life at all - and it may give you absolution. so yes - at that time - i fully back up the changes - not so much cause i think "the zoners deserve it as a punishment" ( not at all - off of all factions on disco - the zoner factions HAVE been the most consistently proactive, but at the same time also the greatest drama queens ever ) - but because IT MAKES SENSE from a DEVELOPERS POINT OF VIEW WHERE THE FACTION IS SUPPOSED TO BE.
so yea - you can blame the devs of old ( which is me as well ) for blowing up the zoners out of proportion - that was wrong! - but justifying it fell on deaf ears - so now we correct mistakes of past times - and that is a good decision.
edit:
to elaborate a bit :
what would have changed the motivation to push forward with the changes? - if last year - when the drama arose the factions had united and stood up for their ships AND the ships usage - including the active defense of zoner assets and stations. if they had not shown the usual in-fighting and more conflict than you have between even hessians and corsairs.
if they had united and acknowleded "yes, those ships are battleships - and yes, there are groups, even if we disagree inRP, that are fully legit to put those weapons to use when attacked from the outside - even by so called allies"
if the zoner players had only disagreed inRP with each other - and not trolled each other ooc. - cause in a whole - and by the actual lore of what zoners CAN be ( if we put aside the illogical stuff about them having such a fleet in the first place ) - they CAN be as much hardcore military groups as well as pacifist hippies. cause the only actual requirement for "being a zoner" is "to be diverse and having left the core worlds for undefined reasons"
look at now - now the most zoners united and start to fight - why did they not do that the other times? - is it really just cause suddently it is not just "the others" and cause "remaining silent and abstaining and - lets not get involved" is not an option anymore? if that was a social experiment ( which it is not ) - it would already be a success - a sad one, cause it just shows that the players hardly stand up for each other unless they are ALL thrown into a pit indiscriminately.
edit2:
also do not mistake motivation with reason. - the motivation to go for the change is probably a personal matter of experience - but thats often the drive of change. - the REASON however is absolutely based on long time assessment of how zoners view themselves and are viewed by others over the passing time since around 4.85
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Gytrash - 03-01-2014
Jinx, where was I last year?
In counselling. Breaking down.
I'm sorry that I wasn't there to strongarm the Zoner leaders into a chat together and say "BEHAVE" at that time. Honestly if I had known about this happening I would have been back to freelancer like a shot and my long and wordy posts would have been done then.
Tell me this Jinx, did you ever state "If you don't get your act together we are going to take away your caps"
Because if you did that then please, link the relevant post and I'll go bash the leaders over the head and say "WHY DID YOU NOT CALL ME?!?!"
But if you cannot provide links to you stating that then this change is being initiated in a completely silent way. Because we know that you didn't PM the leaders about this.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Jinx - 03-01-2014
yea - gytrash , not my fault that you were not there last year - does that invalidate the last years events ? - no - unless you consider yourself to be the one and only zoner in the community. - but who knows - IF there had not been a breakdown or whatever - things might have been different?
but since you had - its just the past - and you were no part of it
also - i am not mad at you at all - even if you are insulting and blaming me personally. - as a matter of fact - i had wished ( as i said ) that someone like you HAD been there last year. funny how things play out i guess.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Corigan - 03-01-2014
(02-22-2014, 02:41 PM)Jinx Wrote: yes, the poll was reviewed and interpreted. - there is a single majority of people wishing to keep things as they are and two groups of people either for a balance change or a change of roles of Zoner ships. - then there is a minor position of people either undecided or wishing for something else.
We have concluded that there is a combined majority of players wishing for change though - which beats the single majority wishing for no change whatsoever. This is an interpretation to which we stand.
DOUBLE VOTES (And a Tripple)
AlphaWolf215 - for and against.
Gründer Industries - For and 'own ideas' Also Against!
Leppy - Voted for both changes
Moebus - voted for both changes
Pancakes - voted for both changes
Vipera Berus - voted for and against.
Void_Nemesis_GOF2 - voted for both changes
Xiphos - Voted for both changes
Zed26 - voted for and against.
Jinx - voted for change (You kept saying you were defending the use of the ships)
Mercarryn - Voted for and against.
The Entire Poll.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/polls.php?action=showresults&pid=1886
Requesting a new poll? One where you can only vote once, Preferably on the homepage for everyone to see and vote on.
EDIT: Now let us do a quick calculation.
55 Against the changes.
57 For the changes.
Now for the math, this gets really complicated.
Now we are going to be removing all double posters from both sides.
55-5= 50 against.
57-15= 42 for
Clear winner? The people against the changes!
Though if you want to ignore the fact that people double posted then we can include one vote per the person. 52 votes for change.
But then we have to include the other votes to keep things the way they are. 55 are against.
Anyone who double posts vote is then made invalid. Give us a new vote. And we'll be sure to get as much of the community as possible to vote on it.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Garrett Jax - 03-01-2014
(03-01-2014, 12:59 PM)Gytrash Wrote: Jinx, where was I last year?
In counselling. Breaking down.
I'm sorry that I wasn't there to strongarm the Zoner leaders into a chat together and say "BEHAVE" at that time. Honestly if I had known about this happening I would have been back to freelancer like a shot and my long and wordy posts would have been done then.
Tell me this Jinx, did you ever state "If you don't get your act together we are going to take away your caps"
Because if you did that then please, link the relevant post and I'll go bash the leaders over the head and say "WHY DID YOU NOT CALL ME?!?!"
But if you cannot provide links to you stating that then this change is being initiated in a completely silent way. Because we know that you didn't PM the leaders about this.
Gytrash, I have told you what you could do to improve your chances of keeping your Zoner caps. In fact, I've asked the Zoner leaders to provide links to any lore in the past years connected with those ships that would justify keeping them.
That was four days ago, and I have received almost nothing. I'm beginning to wonder if there is any lore justification at all. I'm trying to find some reason to advocate for you, but instead of giving me something to work with, you insist on arguing non stop in thread after pointless thread. By doing so, you have utterly destroyed any sympathy I have for the Zoners.
I will encourage you one last time to stop ranting on the forums about it and take mature productive steps that I've already advised you to take. Instead of telling us how removing Zoner caps will destroy your lore, show us. Because, as of this moment, I see no lore to be ruined. And I don't mean the retconned version of lore you are currently working on. I'm talking about past lore that will be irreparably harmed by the removal of these ships. Give the Devs something to consider. Give the Admins something to advocate for. Enough of these rants on the forums. I told you already they were pointless and self defeating.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Zen_Mechanics - 03-01-2014
Jinx is right, if you were to stop claiming that we and other indie factions were not Zoners simply because you declined , doesn't mean it isn't Zoner. I've heard that we exploit nephilims to house space, we shoot traders, all of which are lies.
The ZA on my end has spoken, we may have done mistakes and we were not afraid to admit them, but at least we didn't abuse the ships in anyway, heaven forbid, and no matter how much you try to put this on us, lies are transparent. If you had stopped telling others what Zoners are, or bully them into submission, then you might actually taken seriously. I am against this change, but I'm also very keen to see the same factions who were so sure of themselves to get what they deserve. Me and frog were the only ones who stood up a year ago, while you were complaining that we are not Zoners simply because we share a different view point, what have you done except degrading us and claiming us, nothing.
Sorry for the typos, I'm using a smart\stupid phone