+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery Development (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Discovery Mod General Discussion (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=37)
+--- Thread: Information about upcoming Zoner changes (/showthread.php?tid=112325)
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Aazalot - 03-04-2014
As we discussed with garret, im not sure how much has been told to you by him or not but what was said was this
The Zoners want to be away from house space, thats the Underlying Cause and purpose of the Zoners as a people and as a Faction. To do this they went into deep space / edge space in order to do this. Building Freeports away from things. However as its been discovered and happens quite often, parts of space can very quickly change hands and others can have claims put on them and cause conflicts between oposing claiments. As such any freeport that is stationed in those parts of space have to weather the storm, in some cases with bad results for the Zoners involved.
So what do you do about this situation? You move, thus the next logical step in order to maintain the Zoner ideal of neutrality and remaining out of political space. A moving Freeport, one that can avoid such disbutes. And as Such, the Nephilum was concieved, to be a moving Home Vessel. A mobile Freeport.
Quote:- zoners must prove that they have a genuine requirement of a fully capable military grade battleship - and that does not mean they come up with silly population charts - but they come up with WHY they need to build them.
One of the things i pointed out to Garrett and those in the chat, is that we are looking at the Neph as a Battleship, when instead we should be looking at it as just a Capitol ship. A Capitol ship isnt nessecarilly a Battleship there is a difference there. The Neph would of been built and designed with the idea of being a moving living ship, not a combat vessel. At most the weapons designed for the ship would be for defensive purposes whilst fleeing. AA Turrets for example. It would HAVE be reliant on Fighter Escorts and heavy Armor.
Before people say "whats the difference between Battleship and Capitol Ship Von?" Well ill tell you. My Example comes from other sci fi universes.
In Star Trek one of the most Famous ships is the Galaxy Glass, this is a Capitol ship, its huge, the size of a small city. Despite its firepower, it wasnt built with a military objective in mind, it is in fact an Exploration Cruiser, its function is to be able to sustain the crew and their families for a long period of time away from civlisations. This included recreation facilities, Fully equipped Home Rooms, labs for research so on.
In Star Wars the rebel fleet had 3 Capitol Ships, 2 were the Mon Calimari Star Cruisers. The other? was the Redemption, a Medical Ship, unarmed but heavilly Armored.
We want the Neph to be an Rp commitment, not something you buy to pew with, but something you buy to Rp With something you know full well needs to be Rped well to warrent having it. It shouldnt have the fire power to go toe to toe with other ships of its size, but it Does need to have the physical strength to withstand an attack and flee. As it was stated people WILL use a battleship as a battleship, but make the Neph a battleship that cant fight worth a damn without decent support, PvPers/Battleship Addicts, will avoid it.
The Aquilion is a Recon Cruiser is my argument, going into Areas deploying Fighter craft to scout an area, prehaps for a safe route for a Neph or to find a place to establish a Freeport.
Thats pretty much what was said in chat with Garrett.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Moberg - 03-04-2014
(03-04-2014, 06:07 PM)Aazalot Wrote: One of the things i pointed out to Garrett and those in the chat, is that we are looking at the Neph as a Battleship, when instead we should be looking at it as just a Capitol ship. A Capitol ship isnt nessecarilly a Battleship there is a difference there. The Neph would of been built and designed with the idea of being a moving living ship, not a combat vessel. At most the weapons designed for the ship would be for defensive purposes whilst fleeing. AA Turrets for example. It would HAVE be reliant on Fighter Escorts and heavy Armor.
The Nephilim replacement offers exactly what you need for this purpose, I'm afraid. Though a lot of people get stuck on the mechanicswise shipclass 'Transport' and fail to see beyond this term.
Furthermore, those will be publically available for everyone of course. For those who definitely want to keep their battleship weaponry, they have to put SRP-able effort into the ship. Many seemingly cba to do so, and I think that's where the largest problems of this discussion are.
Favoritism doesn't play as much of an important role anymore. Just a few months ago when someone SRP'ed a barge I heard screaming in many chats how ridiculously easy it is now compared to past times, especially when noting that said applicant is/was rather unknown. How you behave generally will probably be taken into account too.
It will certainly not be impossible to acquire one, if you really depend on battleship weaponry and stats for your roleplay.
But anyway, from what you mentioned, the new Nephilim will suit the role just fine.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Aazalot - 03-04-2014
The fact that we were being told they will become a super transport, We didnt get stuck on the term, we were told it was happening. And Thats just it, i dont think it should be wildy avliable. When i first ever joined the mod back when god was a boy, the nephs were a rare sight to behold, and the ones id id encounter were Rped as colony ships /moving Freeports.
Now as i said, the idea is the Ship is able to withstand fire from a similure ships. If your telling me these "super transports" are going to end up with battleship esc Armor, whats the point in making them in the first place? Isnt it easier just to Reduce the firepower of the current ships?
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - 7AlphaOne1 - 03-04-2014
Aazalot and Xylo seconded.
seriously, I dont see why peops dont like the 'flying fortress ' idea.
gimme a genuine reason for it(edit)
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - NonSequitor - 03-04-2014
(03-04-2014, 02:28 PM)LordVipex Wrote: This should also include why you can't perform those tasks with fighters, bombers, gunboats and 2 different cruisers.
It is easier to kill a battleship with bombers than in another battleship, since you can get hit barely at all. With tactics any cruiser can solo a battleship. From my perspective, the Zoners have everything they need to defend their freeports.
Foremost, diplomacy. The key point to ensure that they have sufficient protection and as few enemies as possible. The only threat that can't be turned into an ally/neutral quickly is the Nomads, but only one Freeport is actively threatened by this due to being kinda at the front. (Omicron Delta).
Then what of your ships you can use against different enemy shipclasses:
- Fighters -> Fighters, Gunboats
- Bombers -> Fighters, Gunboats
- Gunboats -> Cruiser, Gunboats, Bomber, Fighter
- Cruiser -> Cruiser, Gunboat, Bomber
- Battleship -> Cruiser, Bomber
I fail to see how you from a gameplay and lore perspective have the active need for battleship-grade equipment being built in masses in comparison to just a few built and given through SRP.
//edit - Plus escorts are needed in all cases for transports/battleships/freighters anyway.
This isn't a personal dig against you LV - just thinking out loud.
The same logic that you and others have presented applies to every other non-house faction. If the same limitations were actually implemented on the unlawfuls, the Core and the Order, I wonder what the overall effects would be? I not going to be waving any proverbial hammers or last nails around here, but I'm thinking it would have a negative impact.
Is retconning the Zoner shipline really the only option out there?
If certain changes are implemented, indy Zoners can have a BS (if at all) after paying 250 mil and writing up background RP (how much, how long and how deep the RP has to be hasn't been presented). However, an Indie can still pilot his Legate/ Sarissa/Mako/Hessian BS without jumping through any extra loops. The reason being?
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - RedEclipse - 03-04-2014
Well, as we had consultation with admin about this question - we've agreed on nerfing(for example half of heavy turrets), as real compromise between us and devs.
But as for explanation of "why you need battleships" - you clearly can understand why zoners need a ships which can actually defend themselves, Jinx. You've disband Omicroners because of that. We had the enemies, we had possibilities to fight against them, but it was against of your feels of perfection. We damn sealed oursevles in 74 and and had brawls with Corsairs almost everyday, don't you think it's enough of "evidence" why we need firepower?
So, lets sum up with who Zoner are fought. Not mention little conflicts, but a real battlefield/war:
ZTC/Omicroners: Corsairs, Core, Order, Coalition(Did i forget something, bump me then)
OSI: Cant remember really, but now hostile in the Rheinland
TAZ: Had enough balls to say "NO U" to whole royal superior fleet.
So, while Nephilim is a multirole ship - a deep exploration vessel with possibilities of colony ship, it case it should offer enough of firepower - as history of Zoners tell us: they had enough of conflicts, and probably even more in the future, not mention constant enemies as The Wild and Nomads, in the past Phantoms and probably now Revenant.
So anyway, if devs cannot/won't find a reason why Zoners need a firepower for protection(not just ship itself, in case of running from pirate, but survival of whole group), we are agreed on proposal of somewhat nerfing zoner capital ship stats, while Nephilim is weak already, I don't think it's a good solution... But if it will let us to continue have them, Phoenix are for it.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Moberg - 03-04-2014
I personally think it'd be the best if all battleships were restricted to SRPs, but I know very well that implementing this system universally is not going to work anymore at this point.
Anyway, alternatives: Nerfing the stats of either ships to emphasize more on the defensive part.
-> What would be your suggested stats for the Nephilim?
Increasing hull at the expense of powercore/amount of turrets for example? Sacrifing more engine strength to reduce the amount of weak spots (increasing hull).
Thing is, the fact that these threads pop up so frequently that you can set your watch after it shows that the current Zoner battleships have too many issues. Something has to change, and I'd like not to restrict them to official factions only. Everyone should be able to get the ship, regardless of faction. And if we want to keep the open availability, you need to make sure the original intent of the ship is emphasized through the stats. Defense.
Again, reducing amount of turrets / weakening powercore is one of many steps forward from my point of view.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Major_Mayhem - 03-04-2014
I must say it is getting very repetitive. I'm quite sure I have voiced the same arguments several times already and some people are either not willing or not able to read and reflect
(03-04-2014, 02:02 PM)Jinx Wrote: - zoners must prove that they have a genuine requirement of a fully capable military grade battleship - and that does not mean they come up with silly population charts - but they come up with WHY they need to build them.Short: Armed neutrality
Long: Look at the long list of conflicts Red has provided. I give you a hint: This list is incomplete.
(03-04-2014, 02:02 PM)Jinx Wrote: - zoners need to get their RP around the fact that some players will use those ships not as colony barges or exploration ships - but as pure battleships - made for battle. and they will approve that usage and they will support the usage of those ships as BATTLEships.No, we do not. Players using, the PvP-useless, Nehpilim as Battleship violate the Zoner lore. Simple. We have not been given FR2 to get hold of people using the Nephilim as Battleship and FR5s for people who do so, habe been denied.
I, in the name of OSI, have agreed to nerfing the Heavy Turrets, to disencurage usage of the Nephilim as attack ship, even though, balance-wise the Nehpilim is already easy prey.
Phoenix and TAZ have pushed for Zoner Capital ships to be only aviable trough SRP or Members of the official factions. Which has been denied, as it violates Admin policy, we have proposed to disallow Capital ship guns for Zoner ID, which has not even been commented, to disfavour missuse of the Capital ships. Yet, you're here claiming that we need to retconn Zoner RP, because a few Zoner Indies violate Zoner RP.
Which is kind of sarcastic, as we have been denied every possibility to keep the Capital ship usage under control.
(03-04-2014, 02:02 PM)Jinx Wrote: the members that are needed to be persuaded in the dev team was pmed to doc - if they agree with him - so be it. - and we will hope that the zoners will adjust their RP accordingly in the future.
We are working hard on the lore of how and when the Zoner Capial ships came into existence. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine a Mobile freeport as logical evolution of the stationary Freeports.
However, during our research we have found that the RP of several other factions with a capital ship line is in direct violation of vanilla lore. I do, therefore, not quite understand why only the Zoners are beeing picked on for this fallacy in vanilla lore.
My fellow Zoner Leaders and I have presented an interesting list of RP events and stories to the Admins wich would have to be completely retconned, if the change were to come trough.
E.g The Omicroner/Corsair war was fought with Capital ships on both sides. If the Capital ship line of the Zoner were to be retconned, this war could not have happened like it did. There is ample forum RP around this, and Red Eclipse has presented it to Garret, who, to this day, has so far not even commented on it.
There are a ton of other examples, but since the Devs are either not willing or not able to follow our reasoning I won't bother with other examples.
Go educate yourself on Zoner lore and RP before proposing changes jeopardizing years and years of RP. Oh and next time you claim having ontacted Zoner Leaders, please make it so, that they actually remember beeing contacted....
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Dead Reckoning - 03-04-2014
Aazalot and Xylo made points better articulated than I could manage.
(03-04-2014, 03:11 PM)Xylo Wrote: I think it's the character of the new model that people have have the most problems with. The biodomes, the size, and the fact that it wasn't an easy kill gave the old ship a very different character from most ships, which made it attractive for certain kinds of RP, even if its not intended as a combat ship. The new model doesn't have the same character as the old one, disregarding the guns and the labels of "battleship" or "transport".
This is a factor for me. I think the current model looks the exact part of my RP. Biodomes just like a Freeport, visible docking hangar at the front for ships to come and go, the windows along the side (the white bars) like decks. It looks exactly like what I would expect a mobile freeport to be.
Further, it can take a hit if it needs to. If you get into a situation where diplomacy can't solve it (or you're run into some nomads) and you need to escape, the current Neph has your back what with its high armor and flak coverage.
I feel the real reason why so many people are up in arms are because of this part of the OP:
Quote:the ship won t be capable of assaulting other ships even half its size though but maybe it might be capable of taking the damage to get to a friendly port. - for that matter we must hope that other ( non zoner ) players respect the new role, too and do not attack "just cause they can" but only if they have sufficient RP and reason for it. ( but thats a lost cause i know )
So it would be the same size, it would not be able to assault, but it might be capable of taking damage. More on that later. Further, we would have to hope (ooRPly) that other players don't just go to town on the newly weakened neph because it has no chance of making it now where as before it had a battleships chance of making it. If suddenly another players capital decides, "Welp, I hate Zoners. Time to go exterminate this colony.", that ship is going down. A Zoner colony ship full of food with no defenses would be a gold mine for a Corsair. (In these cases case, I'm assuming another players capital more than a bomber. Bombers below.)
(03-04-2014, 06:34 PM)Aazalot Wrote: Now as i said, the idea is the Ship is able to withstand fire from a similure ships. If your telling me these "super transports" are going to end up with battleship esc Armor, whats the point in making them in the first place? Isnt it easier just to Reduce the firepower of the current ships?
This is the target of that "more on that later." If we assume it will be like a Liner with 4kish space, you run into the quandary of trading. If it is indeed able to take a few hits to get to a friendly port, you've just made one of the most powerful trading ships in the game when the Zoners already have an extremely powerful trading ship in the Whale. Why should I stop to a pirate when I can probably just tank the hits to make it to my next base while fending him off with my presumably numerous turrets?
Turrets. Right, the other balance issue introduced. If we assume the ships size, it will probably have quite a lot of turrets. The ship would at least need a medium battleship core unless Zoners are also losing the ability to jump with a JD3 or 4. For the point of this exercise, we will assume that we do lose that ability and only are able to jump with JD 2 with its requirement of a light battleship (3.6M) powercore.
With a 3,600,000 u powercore, it will never run out of energy. The heaviest transport turret takes 1000u/s to fire. That core recharges at 220,000u/s. If it uses cruiser turrets(someone suggested that it might), it will still almost never run out of power and would be the most defendable trading ship in the game.
If it has enough armor to take some hits, it becomes an overpowered trading ship.
If its armor is reduced too much, it's a sitting duck.
If it has a powercore able to jump it will definitely be an overpowered trading ship.
If it doesn't have a powercore able to jump, that's an incredible Zoner nerf. Especially given that some of us are on the fringes of space and are explorers. Jumping has quite a place in exploring RP (jumping into unknown systems, jumping back to known systems after exploring, etc.)
The balance issues that introduces are not trivial I would think.
(03-04-2014, 07:02 PM)RedEclipse Wrote: we are agreed on proposal of somewhat nerfing zoner capital ship stats, while Nephilim is weak already, I don't think it's a good solution... But if it will let us to continue have them, Phoenix are for it.
I agree with Red here. If we can't control access to the ships via factions, and if we can't restrict how the ships operate via ID and handle troll Zoners oorp through sanctions and faction rights, then the next step that maintains the most balance would be nerfing the Nephs heavy turret hardpoints, even though as mentioned above, it already is not a good pvp ship.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - E.T. - 03-04-2014
Zoners just take another ship which gives you enough powercore to continue or just use other id like order or maybe even img who can also use caps. This won't solve the problems people (ab)using capital ships. In this case the zoner ones.. It only shift it to another faction