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+--- Thread: Economy in 5.2+ (/showthread.php?tid=205804)
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Lord Caedus - 11-23-2024
(11-23-2024, 06:32 PM)Enko Wrote:(11-23-2024, 06:21 PM)Karst Wrote: Yeah I'm not seeing anywhere near those numbers.
Granted, it's the Kusari side specifically that's kind of fucked here since all the routes go south except the ones to Gallia, but even accounting for that, it's like a solid 10-20% below a typically priced oldmining ore route of comparable length.
Gold is 115 from Coleraine and 215 to Planet Denver. 100 Profit.
Using Darkstat, the CSU from PNL to Denver is 8.26, because PNL sells gold for 157.
215 Denver - 157 PNL = 58 credits profit.
58c x 100 = 5800 cents.
5800 Cents divided by 702 seconds = 8.26 csu as seen on Darkstat.
Then we go from Coleraine, which will add more time say 30 seconds.
215 Denver - 115 Coleraine = 100 credits profit.
100c x 100 = 10000 cents.
10000 cents divided by 732 seconds = 13.66 csu
Therefore we can roughly work out that Coleraine to Denver is 13.66 csu, using darkstat.
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Platinum from Acteri is 106 credits profit over 804 seconds, which puts it at 13.18 csu to Planet New London.
This is comprable on the way back mind you because the distance to Acteri is longer, but it also sells plat for 15c less than Coleraine.
Meanwhile, Darkstat HTA to Cambrige from Wichter is 10.17 csu. It's not adding up.
So yes, real world figures will be lower csu because Darkstat is faster than real world transports, but that will not make the delta between HTA from Sig 15 to Cambrige vs Gold/Plat any better.
I think the issue is specifically doing the route to end in Shikoku.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Enko - 11-23-2024
(11-23-2024, 06:59 PM)Lord Caedus Wrote: I think the issue is specifically doing the route to end in Shikoku.
Have to bare in mind that Shikoku pobs will be worse for this because the route to NL is longer, and until more NuMining HRCs arrive to develop more routes this is right now the only 'linked' route there is with pure NuMining HRC.
We also wont make all the PoB positions viable, it is known the further away from the field you are the worse your PoB generally is, if the Shikoku PoBs want to compete with routes that do not traverse through Kusari easier they need to move closer to the field.
That being said:
Gold is 237 - 115 = 122 credits profit.
12,200 cents over 862 seconds (+30 to pob) is 12,200 over 892 = 13.68 csu.
Plat returning is;
Plat 207 - 110 = 97 credits profit.
9,700 cents over 862 seconds (+30 to pob) is 9,700 over 892 = 10.87 csu.
This however still amounts to a stronger return trip csu than HTA, which means that it is still better than HTA.
This is also in spite of the way that the Shikoku Pobs take the Plat further away from this particular trade route which has the effect of:
![[Image: 14addd8704.png]](https://puu.sh/KjdFw/14addd8704.png)
Doing this to any trade route would result in a loss, and despite paying for going essentially backwards the plat route is still better than HTA.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Karst - 11-23-2024
Well.
You can base a route from Denver or Deshima/Tsukishima, that's where you'd be selling whatever you brought, presumably, and depending on which direction you're going (almost certainly south), you'd be at a disadvantage when buying in one of the directions. Ionic isn't even far from the field; it's basically mindistance from the gate, which itself is ~30k or whatever from the field.
But really, the math is simpler than that. Numining plat takes a lot longer than oldmining, obviously. Regardless of where your base is. The base price is also higher than old mining, but it isn't enough higher, unlike Gold. If you consider 80cu a reasonable rate for oldmining, and you pay 150cu for numining plat which is pretty close to the highest amount you can pay, you're paying less than before. Because it definitely takes longer than 187% of the old mining time. If you're then selling the ore for 110, which would be reasonable, your base isn't getting (much) more than before, and the shippers also aren't getting any more than like, a 70cu oldmining route like Copper or Molybdenum.
It's just more work for less money.
Edit: Worth noting that fuel is much more expensive in the Platinum region than it is for Gold, which doesn't exactly help its margins.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Enko - 11-23-2024
(11-23-2024, 07:37 PM)Karst Wrote: Well.
You can base a route from Denver or Deshima/Tsukishima, that's where you'd be selling whatever you brought, presumably, and depending on which direction you're going (almost certainly south), you'd be at a disadvantage when buying in one of the directions. Ionic isn't even far from the field; it's basically mindistance from the gate, which itself is ~30k or whatever from the field.
But really, the math is simpler than that. Numining plat takes a lot longer than oldmining, obviously. Regardless of where your base is. The base price is also higher than old mining, but it isn't enough higher, unlike Gold. If you consider 80cu a reasonable rate for oldmining, and you pay 150cu for numining plat which is pretty close to the highest amount you can pay, you're paying less than before. Because it definitely takes longer than 187% of the old mining time. If you're then selling the ore for 110, which would be reasonable, your base isn't getting (much) more than before, and the shippers also aren't getting any more than like, a 70cu oldmining route like Copper or Molybdenum.
It's just more work for less money.
What is wild about it is that you're suggesting that 2.5mil per hour is too little. But still:
Numining Hegemons take about 18min for a 3.0x ID with Gold, about 50% of this is actual mining. I've done mining in 8 minutes no problem, but assume 9 is a good average for 50/50 and being a bit slower. Thats 9 mining, 9 travel.
3.33 trips per hour, that is 16,650 ore per hour delivered. 16,650 x 154 (current price on Lisheen) is 2,564,100.
Base price of gold is $60.
Old base price of gold was $30. (Verified by checking old HRCs such as Niobium).
Let's assume that the claims made by other people here are accurate and a hegemon is filled in 5m, I assume they are using an ID that is 3.0x as well so it's not skewed in favour, so we'll claim its like for like.
5 min mining + 9 min travel = 14 min. This makes 4.28 trips per hour, at 21,400 ore delivered. If valued at 80, as you say, that is 1,712,000 credits per hour. Infact you would have to pay miners 117c per ore to break past 2.5mil per hour mark.
It gets worse.
16,650 ore in NuMining is 31,341 Gold HRC with a total of 39.17 runs of the recipe. This is because 425 ore = 800 HRC.
21,400 in Old Mining is 30,211 Gold GRC, with a total of 50.35 runs of the recipe. This is because 425 ore = 600 HRC here.
The end result is that, you get less gold, valued less, paid for less, and the 11 or so more runs of the recipe (On Lisheen this is about 100k) = more cost in IMs/Mox, and more time spent resupplying the base which is also a factor.
So why is it worse?
I also would ask for anyone to provide a video of their fastest old mining times solo with a hegemon, with their ID also shown.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Tenshi Kuonji - 11-23-2024
(11-23-2024, 05:32 PM)Ramke Wrote: Before we head off into fighting each other in this thread (the conversation isn't about NuMining technically - it's about the economy), I would recommend everyone to offer constructive suggestions on what to alter, or ideas on how to improve.
There's nothing to be gained from saying "skill issue lol" or getting ego in the way.
Some people like the old system, some people like the new system. It's changing so naturally there'll be friction. Just communicate what you'd want to see changed economy wise, and offer suggestions on how to do it.
I want real HRU high CSU commodity without being considerable time, what i meant all houses should have the basic commodities while each house should have 1-2 HRC and some other medium type ones...
Increasing the amount of time it requires to mine up is critical, are you expect die in game and you expect be effort with playing with friendlies when we already lack players?
I think you bold see 150 players on active always, but reality we have at most 20-30 players at median, unless you do some event...
We just wanna make it playable mining to keep us feed and play with what we loves most (trading or battling) not spend my few moments able to play Discovery by just mining
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Enko - 11-23-2024
(11-23-2024, 07:37 PM)Karst Wrote:
Edit: Worth noting that fuel is much more expensive in the Platinum region than it is for Gold, which doesn't exactly help its margins.
Acteri is sort of 50/50 on hfuel vs mox because of the refinery for Mox, but if we take Ionic that doesn't use a refinery. Ionic as of the time of posting buys MOX for 52, that is 52c x 170 = 8,840c.
H-fuel is 61c at the Liner yards closest to the pob.
Let's assume +5c over that (which is +10c for 1x volume as this is 0.5x volume) being a generous bonus to cruise like 20k extra to get to the pob.
66c x 85 for a run with H-fuel is 5,610c.
New:
-
To add to this, 104c hfuel cost would be the same as current Mox, but you could go down to like 82c per hfuel and get a 10.5csu trip from Osaka (and better from further out or even pobs that supply this cheaper). 82c x 85 = 6,970.
I would totally get h-fuel from say the Sigma 13 PoB at cheaper than base price rates, even if the trip takes twice as long to get you can carry twice as much.
-
You also should take into account that you do half the trips with H-fuel = half the opportunity costs if you are doing this yourself, because you can ship twice as much H-fuel per trip.
So H-fuel is cheaper, and it requires half the trips. Why are you not using H-Fuel?
Bonus round: I put the numbers in for Lisheen and NuMining 1 Hegemon per hour = 70,000c profit, Old Mining was -74,900c profit with the prices for gold locked at 95c each. And also Old Mining prices for Gold's base price means that the traders are getting 30c worse on their routes for the favour of using old mining. Yikes.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Haste - 11-23-2024
Platinum probably just needs a slightly higher base price (technically 'producer price override') for full parity with gold. Hardly a huge deal, I'd just like to know how much to bump it up by. Deuterium could be the same as I imagine it's also more expensive to fuel, though I don't know how much moreso.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Darkseid667 - 11-23-2024
(11-23-2024, 05:41 PM)Synts Wrote:(11-23-2024, 05:37 PM)TonyB Wrote:(11-23-2024, 05:23 PM)Haste Wrote:(11-23-2024, 05:09 PM)Synts Wrote: You just brought up the biggest concern with this new mining system -- "time". I understand that someone doesn't have a job, a wife, children, or any life at all and can spend 24/7 playing video games.
Are you really saying that getting multiple players together at the same time for a group mining op -- which was really the only way in which the old system is quicker than the new -- is easier for busy adults than an 8 (Archon) to 20 (Hegemon) minute round trip in a "NuMining" field? I would argue the new system is much friendlier to a quick mining session. You can do a run or two and be done in less than 45 minutes, or even under 20 minutes if you're using an Archon. At the same time, if you do want a group operation you can still do so and it's still worth doing.
Well, a full cargo was 8 minutes before. Could you answer my question ? Why change a good and balanced system ?
Tony, the game is evolving, things are changing, I'm okay with all of this, but what I don't understand is why the most annoying thing is being made even more annoying and time-consuming.
Exactly. A mining beam, constantly eroding the big ore asteroids and stacking ore into the hold would have been much nicer than all this "erode the shield with weapon A, destroy the lids with weapon B, mine with weapon C" silliness.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Skorak - 11-24-2024
Do people actually want to play a game where you just hold one button? At this point it's just my genuine question.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - NOVA-5 - 11-24-2024
(11-24-2024, 01:14 AM)Skorak Wrote: Do people actually want to play a game where you just hold one button? At this point it's just my genuine question.
Seems so but we're pushed to adapt and adapt we shall.