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+--- Thread: Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule (/showthread.php?tid=36208)
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - Exsiled_one - 03-12-2010
but basically yeah, thats what's going on
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - ConcreteFloater - 03-12-2010
' Wrote:A question: whats then if a haegemon mining ship just run as soon as he get some "red" on his scanner. He ahs armour he has 100k shield - well equipped. The enemy come fast and catch him, they shoot a SNAC shooting or just use their guns whatever, mining ship lose more than 50% of his shield - so he is in PvP. Of course miner driver press 'TAB' and 'F' and 'G' continously so he reach the safety got some damage but he was far from destruction. Mining ship make an emergency dock - "Phew, it was close, lets drink something". Can this miner take off later when the pirates left the area/system? Or this Mining Ship died - as rules say if you ran and dock you died, but of course getting a SNAC shot not so hard. But that is enough? I mean if I wanna ruin others gameplay I enter Omega 7 northern field with a pirate char - lot of indy Kruger there. I ask their all cargo I shoot one-one to all mining ship, they of course start to run to Elbich. They dock because they cant await the help in space. So they must leave Omega 7 for 4 hour?
Wolfspirit asks a good question!
To me I see it as this...
My miner character is having a jolly old time in the fields, he is a cautions one, he loves his ship and crew and decides he doesn't want to mine miles and miles form a safe place. Exert time he gets a hint of danger he moves to the base. [Good, logical in-character RP].
On one occasion he gets caught by a trigger-happy pirate for example. The have a good chat in RP but the miner is thinking 'this could get nasty so I'll dock for a bit. Maybe the pirate will leave me alone'. The pirate thinks 'okay, time to start shooting... I want to blow a miner to pieces!'. So the pirate shoots his trusty SNAC and the miners shields drop to 1/3. The captain of the miner is just in the process of docking and docks. His ship is safe, his crew are safe and he is happy, he made a good Captain's decision.
The pirate is unhappy! He realises that it was a bad decision to attack such a heavily armoured Miner, so close to his base and obviously a pacifist... he has the hump because he knows that he made a bad decision and wasted his time so he goes in a huff to find another victim.
So, that's the RP...
Surely, the miner is now not grounded for 4 hours! He is the victor. A good RP decision that was successful. For him to be penalised would be counter productive to the gaming community. If that were the case, and I were a pirate, I'd sit outside bases and after minimal RP, SNAC some poor miner or transport that has just launched and voil?; he is out of action for 4 hours!!! No way.
To me there is another scenario though:
Imagine all is the same as above, except this time our mining captain is having a bad day... the drops are bad, the constant sound or the processing machinery is really getting to him... he's fed-up! And, what's this?!!! Oh, not another damn pirate?! So, he starts to head to base but the Pirate really gets to him and he orders his gunners to teach the pirate a lesson. He fights back, he's doing well but the Pirate is doing better and he has to get to the base to save his ship and crew... phew... he just made it on time but all are safe!
Now, this time there is a key difference: The mining captain decided to "have a go" at the pirate. It was a bad decision for him. He had to run away with his tail between his legs and hide.
So the pirate is the victor; he made a good decision to attack that miner. He didn't quite reach his goal of money or loot but none the less ho almost made it. The miner on the other hand made a bad decision; he thought he could take this one... bad choice. He engaged and lost, not by death [Good RP] but by having to flee to save his life.
So, here we are... My feelings in summery:
Surely PvP 'combat' is when two or more ships engage (<50% shields) EACH-OTHER? If one is cunning, and makes it to safety without shooting, then why should that individual be penalised with a 4h penalty? It is the attacker who made the bad decision to attack in such a safe location for his target. This interpretation of the rules ensures the best RP for all... The attackers have to be more strategic, as do the miners etc. If, as a miner you are all alone in the middle of nowhere then you are taking a great risk. If, as a pirate you decide to challenge a miner in a safe position it is now you who is taking the 'risk' of wasting your time!
Phew... Anyway, just my thoughts. ;)
CF
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - Lucas_Fernandez - 03-12-2010
' Wrote:A question: whats then if a haegemon mining ship just run as soon as he get some "red" on his scanner. He ahs armour he has 100k shield - well equipped. The enemy come fast and catch him, they shoot a SNAC shooting or just use their guns whatever, mining ship lose more than 50% of his shield - so he is in PvP. Of course miner driver press 'TAB' and 'F' and 'G' continously so he reach the safety got some damage but he was far from destruction. Mining ship make an emergency dock - "Phew, it was close, lets drink something". Can this miner take off later when the pirates left the area/system? Or this Mining Ship died - as rules say if you ran and dock you died, but of course getting a SNAC shot not so hard. But that is enough? I mean if I wanna ruin others gameplay I enter Omega 7 northern field with a pirate char - lot of indy Kruger there. I ask their all cargo I shoot one-one to all mining ship, they of course start to run to Elbich. They dock because they cant await the help in space. So they must leave Omega 7 for 4 hour?
The thing, usually the miners dont say a word. most of them not real miners, they only mine to have money for lolwut capitals, if they see you, they'll dock without paying anything, that is why this is the rule Wolf. I remember a situation when a miner undocked, started to shot at my hessian ship, afer he ran out of regens, he docked, undocked and fired on me again ....
We need the reengage rule. In RP its dumb thing is aswell, if the miner i killed 10 minutes ago, is mining happy again in the minefield. He shall pay the tax or run away knowing that he can't make money for the next 4 hours.
Edit: with this reply i wasn't reffering to DHC or Ralphi's Kruger miners, only to indie lolminers
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - Exsiled_one - 03-12-2010
Well I'll give you the third option.
The miner is a sneaky bastard who thinks he's safe as long as he is near the base.
So he stands there when pirates come, making sure he'll actually dock if real threat comes.
he keeps taunting the pirates knowing he's safe to dock soon, so he stands there to wait and see what will they do.
If he gets hit, he deserves to stay grounded for 4 hours. he fled.
Here's the deal. If you see a pirate from 12k (10k) you have time to start your cruise and run.
let's say that pirate ain't so bright, so he's coming from a direction that allows you to dock to the base.
He chases you and he can't CD you because he's 3k away from you. When you come to safe dock, with quickdock you will dock unharmed.
If he is closer to you, he'll just CD you before. nuff said.
A good Rp decision is to be able to dock before pirate catches onto you.
Keep in mind that fleeing counts as pvp death for everyone. Even that LF that got engaged by a big battleship and battleship can't surely kill him. Its the rules.
Then again, rule 0.0 allows the miner to get out again if pirate lets him.
Instead of sticking to the rules, why not use the basic and first rule?
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - ConcreteFloater - 03-12-2010
Quote:I remember a situation when a miner undocked, started to shot at my hessian ship, afer he ran out of regens, he docked, undocked and fired on me again ....
Well, this is exactly as in my point... HE engaged you so fair enough he docked he should stay docked! He ran, you 'won'. 4 hour rule.
Quote:if the miner i killed 10 minutes ago, is mining happy again in the minefield
Well, er, you killed him so 4 hour rule. Simple!
Quote:The miner is a sneaky bastard who thinks he's safe as long as he is near the base
Let me put that another way... "The miner is a <strike>sneaky</strike> strategic and cautious <strike>bastard</strike> Gent (;)) who <strike>thinks he's</strike> is <strike>safe</strike> safer as long as he is near the base.
What's wrong with that? May I suggest you choose your 'victims' as carefully as he chooses his fields!!! For example, in Omega-7, why do you think Dauman built their base so close to their mining site? That's right, for the convenience and safety of their miners!
Quote:he keeps taunting the pirates
What?! You don't like being taunted? Don't be a pirate then!!! That is the 'nature' of our relationship with you.
Quote:If he gets hit, he deserves to stay grounded for 4 hours.
Again... What?!!! You think just because you managed to SNAC a stationary lump of miner before he docked you deserve the victory? (plus you SNAC him because he taunts you? Calm down a little!) Pick on victims in more vulnerable places not right near stations.
Quote:Here's the deal. If you see a pirate from 12k (10k) you have time to start your cruise and run.
let's say that pirate ain't so bright, so he's coming from a direction that allows you to dock to the base.
Eh, okay. So, that's great except he is bright and knows to block the line to the station. On the other hand the Miner is also bright and knows that the station is his best bet, and that as it's only one pirate that his hard-earned armour will allow him the time to get to the station in safety. THAT is why miners buy good armour. That is why you buy a SNAC or Nova Torp. We all do things based on RP logic. Some of us win and some loose. Sometimes no one wins and no one looses!
Quote:A good Rp decision is to be able to dock before pirate catches onto you.
Actually, a good RP decision varies with the situation but, to a miner, is the decision where his ship is safe and in one piece, the crew are unharmed and he has retained as much of his ores or capital as possible. Just having to 'pay-up' because you ask for your 'donation' is hardly conductive to good RP or to a natural scenario. What you suggest is that realistically we have two options: 1 - Dock and we are out of business for 4 hours. Or, 2 - Pay you your demands and maybe we can mine somewhere else. That is, in no way a sensible suggestion. That basically translates to you ALWAYS getting your money for NOTHING!
Quote:5.6 Fleeing in combat counts as a PVP death.
So does being shot at automatically make the scenario 'combat'? No chance! If you walk down the street and someone thumps you in the head, and you run away... is that COMBAT? Or is 'combat' when two individuals 'attack' each-other? Like boxers in a ring, or, if you retaliate with the nutter who thumped you in the head? That then is combat and fair enough, the one who then flees is the 'looser'.
BUT, I re-state: In what true RP sense should a Miner, just because he got SNAC'd once before making it to safety, HAVE to stay out of the field for 4 hours?!!!
If HE wants to have another go after 5 minutes and you are still there then YOU have another go at him. In that regard he would be an idiot anyway as he won't be able to do any productive mining irrespective of weather you actually kill him or not. Any sensible miner is going to log-off or go to another system anyway. If an idiot miner wants to keep trying to mine only to be continuously hassled then, well, they are an idiot!
But I still maintain that the Miner should not have a 4 hour rule enforced just because they got hit once!
CF
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - mwerte - 03-12-2010
I agree with all of the above. But write the rule so that it is easy to understand both scenarios and covers all the other scenarios out there. And is not full of convoluted examples.
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - ConcreteFloater - 03-12-2010
Personally I think it is quite simple. All rules stay exactly the same. They work.
'Attack' is already defined so there is no confusion there, just define 'combat' as:
Two or more ships 'attacking' each-other.
So, if you 'attack' me and I don't retaliate then I am just being defensive. If I decide to 'attack' you in retaliation then we are now, by default, in 'combat' and all normal PvP rules apply.
CF
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - Exsiled_one - 03-12-2010
You do not need to tell us how rules are sometimes wrong.
but that attitude won't get you anywhere.
Admins write the rules so they can fit us all the best.
The rules are there to obey them. And that's the final thing of them.
if you have a proposal how rule should be changed without making it too complicated, offer a suggestion.
yelling at others how it is wrong, isn't going to help you and it will make you look weird. Like it or not, private server, their rules their game.
I personally never pirated with a snac, never understood that. What.. I'll tax him he'll refuse to pay and i'll kill him, leaving the loot there because I can't even pick it up.
Like it or not, when you get shot at, it's an engagement. When I get killed, or when I run or whenever I get booted out of system because of the rules, I pm the guy and ask him can I come back before 4 hours. You would be surprised how it achieves things.
interesting rule proposal tho... lets see what admins have to say about it
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - Agmen of Eladesor - 03-12-2010
' Wrote:BUT, I re-state: In what true RP sense should a Miner, just because he got SNAC'd once before making it to safety, HAVE to stay out of the field for 4 hours?!!!In what true RP sense should a starflier that's level 5 have immunity from destruction?
In what true RP sense should a transport ship have immunity from attack by cap ships that aren't part of official factions within pre-determined space?
This is an RP server that has rules that we have set up since it's still a game, and also NOT real life. You dock, you go do something else for 4 hours. Assume that your ship needs to be re-fueled, your bathroom fixtures need emptied out, the docking bay was busy and couldn't fit you back into the outbound lanes, something inside broke while you were docking - a myriad of things. Exercise your imagination.
But most importantly - follow the rules. They aren't that onerous.
Admin Notice: Miners and the 4 hour rule - AceofSpades - 03-12-2010
I agree that a ship that does not attempt to enter cruise, does not return fire should be exempt from the four hour rule. If you've got the skill or proper planning to avoid being destroyed in the time it takes you to reach a base or safe haven without cruising or shooting the whole way, you are doing something right--probably something smart that involves proper prior planning or tactics. I think we should encourage such creativity as best as we can do so without harming any of our base combat rules. I agree that these rules are necessary to gameplay, but if we work very carefully at creating some sensical exceptions that are well thought-out and worded (not easily abused) we can greatly improve gameplay by allowing for "smart retreating" or "hit and run tactics".
We should all work on a way to seperate "fleeing/pvp death" from "avoiding being blasted because you thought ahead"