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+---- Thread: Supernovas! (/showthread.php?tid=8333)
Supernovas! - Jinx - 05-07-2008
should the rogues really have one? - they are supposed to be even more shattered than any other criminal organization - and the ID says they are rather petty liberty criminals, - forced to retreat into the badlands. - but they are not as organized as the gaians even, who derive from academics at cambridge.... . ( only reason the rogues could have one is cause they have their own ships... mind you, they have their own junk ships, cause they cannot afford the eagle civi line ... not cause they are so bright and resourceful )
and i don t think the zoners need one. - firstly, they can use the order ones, from the order allies, they are most likely to use it. - secondly, - why should they make something like that. - the zoners haven t got their own fighterline, - they are not involved in the eagle series and only marginally involved in the sabre series ( - and not at all in the falcata )
so, do the zoners only get one so the other non-SN factions can buy one?
Supernovas! - Robert.Fitzgerald - 05-07-2008
About the Liberty Rogue cannon, well I think the Lane Hacker influence on the project should help justify it. The Blood Dragons and Hessians made mortars, surely Lane Hacker designers and Rogue labourers could design a version?
The Order cannon is designed to be Order only, according to my talks with Clayph. Hence, the advanced stats. The Corsairs and the Zoners get their own, different versions, leaving the Order with their special toy.
The Zoners get the generic one, yes. It's for Zoners, and the factions who aren't advanced/can't be bothered to design a version.
Edit: quick list of factions using the Zoner Mortar:
-Zoners
-IMG
-GMG
-Civilians (don't see many bombers here, but it's a possibility)
-Xenos
-Erm, I'll edit when I get the rest.
Supernovas! - Jinx - 05-07-2008
i think its too many. - imo, only the houses should get their versions - and none of the pirates factions. pirates should either use a generic one - or none at all.
so while i think its a great idea for liberty, rheinland, bretonia and kusari - i m not sure about those small factions whos primary interest is to stay out of the line of fire of the houses. ( gaians, hackers, rogues, xenos, dragons, etc etc )
if the hackers get a supernova, other facitons will scream to get one, too. when we keep the RP strict, - most of these factions don t know the nova / supernova at all. - the strongest weapon they know is the minirazor that costs twice as much as a fully equipped deluxe fighter alone.
the houses, especially liberty can get a SN version easily... the LSF spies the order and will have a general idea. - the BHG might get one, cause they battle the order. - the corsairs would rather use the orders SN than develope their own, - the zoners don t need one anyway. - the outcasts and allies hardly have contact to the order, so they ll think that sunslayers is the standard and the minirazor the deluxe bomber torp. - the other rather civilian factions have no idea about a weapon dealing 100.000+ damage ... and so no need.
Supernovas! - Robert.Fitzgerald - 05-07-2008
If mini razors are the deluxe torpedo for the vast majority of factions, then bombers would be completely useless for everyone but the Order and the four houses.
So in essence, this supernova project looks to be a balancing one, which helps justify the roleplay of certain factions. It allows practically every faction in the game to use the vital "Boom" torpedo class, without contradicting their roleplay with the roleplay of the current Supernova (Order only).
It also varies the heavy torpedoes, allowing for different tactical and strategic combat situations. Currently, practically everyone uses graviton shields. The particle supernovas here would take them out easily. However, the same particle weapons would be terrible against Molecular shields, which are terrible against the Demeter, and so forth.
It adds a whole new dimension to capital ship shielding.
Quote:if the hackers get a supernova, other facitons will scream to get oneIt's a joint, Hacker/Rogue/Outcast project. Anyway, it is more of a balancing issue. Blood Dragons (and their friends in Kusari) have a mortar, Red Hessians (and their allies in Rheinland) have a mortar, the Mollies and the Gaians use different versions... The Liberty pirates get nothing. Well, the Lilith allows the Lane Hackers and the Liberty Rogues to use the vital "boom" torpedo, as mentioned above, without reducing their roleplay to bits.
Also, the Lane hackers are probably the most effective technical wizards in all of Sirius, apart from the Order and Liberty secret designers. I don't see the problem with them helping their allies the Rogues get back onto their feet, with a different Outcast blaster.
Corsair side pirates get the Demeter or the Zoner cannon. I don't see the problem with this, as none of them are really technically minded...
Supernovas! - ParanoidAndroid - 05-07-2008
' Wrote:Anyway, it is more of a balancing issue. Blood Dragons (and their friends in Kusari) have a mortar, Red Hessians (and their allies in Rheinland) have a mortar, the Mollies and the Gaians use different versions... The Liberty pirates get nothing. Well, the Lilith allows the Lane Hackers and the Liberty Rogues to use the vital "boom" torpedo, as mentioned above, without reducing their roleplay to bits.
Also, the Lane hackers are probably the most effective technical wizards in all of Sirius, apart from the Order and Liberty secret designers. I don't see the problem with them helping their allies the Rogues get back onto their feet, with a different Outcast blaster.
And that's the point. Giving a chance to factions to have their own design of that weapon will surely develop their abbitlites of roleplay and from this point there will be no need to bend the roleplay for purpose of getting SN. And as the Lane Hackers are the most technical geniuses in the Sirius they should get their own design of SN on 2nd/3rd place in actual order.
' Wrote:- the BHG might get one, cause they battle the order.
That's not a reason.
Supernovas! - Jinx - 05-07-2008
its a reason for knowing something like a 140k dam weapon even exists. - not a reason to "get" one - i agree. but other factions might ... in RP not even know of a weapon of such power.
i don t believe in looting and backwards developing from what you looted. ( at least not as simple as it sounds ) - but if we take it for granted that only the order has supernova / antimatter technology... only those in contact with them would know that it exists.
for example... no doubt that every faction can need it. - but what if we take it down to what a character really knows. - a gaian does not know about supernovas, but they may know about the super expensive minirazor. so, thinking of the availability of torpedos, they mainly use the sunslayer ( and get utterly frustrated about its poor effectiveness against transports ) - and sometimes use twin razors and are utterly delighted to do something like 30.000 damage in a single salvo.
but they wouldn t think of it being ineffective. - its the players that think so. a gaian would think its great. - the order however would think of it as being "weak" - cause they know they have a gun that does 140.000 dam. - gaians and order never meet. so they won t know about it.
BHG and order meet on a daily base. - the BHG has capital ships there for fighting the order and nomads and corsairs. - they will know that the order has a weapon that can rip their destroyers apart. - without the supernova, the destroyers are indeed a good choice for the omicrons... with the supernova, they are cannonfodder. - but thats how it should be. - BHG has the numbers, order has the quality.
reality looks different though... BHG has numbers AND the supernova, order is low on numbers and hasn t even the shipline to match the BHG, - but nevertheless, the BHG does know about the supernova. - while msot other factions do not.
so in char, they know something with such a power exists.... - while facitons like gaians, hackers ( they might be able to find out, but why find out something that you don t know that even exists ), rogues, etc - don t know about it. ( and no, they don t go into the omicrons much.... - and the order doesn t venture into the house space much - not openly )
thats where roleplay clashes with gamebalance. - but if its gamebalance we want, - we gotto apply it to each faction. - we cannot treat one faction down to roleplay like "they are not likely to get it in RP terms" - and another faction down to gamebalance like "well, we must give them something or its unfair, its a pvp world in the end".
no problem with that, but one must be aware of it and how one discusses the whole topic.
Supernovas! - Robert.Fitzgerald - 05-07-2008
Every faction in the game is represented by the proposal, with the exception of the Wild, Phantoms and the Nomads. I believe they will be dealt with soon enough.
The Supernova is a vital piece of equipment for bombers. Without the Supernova, a Bomber is useless at their job: destroying capital ships. If you wish to restrict that, fine. Expect nobody to use them anymore.
This proposal gives roleplayed-alternatives to the vast majority of the npc factions of the game. It gives specific factionised mortars, and a few generic-ish mortars - Zoner and Corsair (generic as in, the Gaians/FA/Hogosha may use it) - to groups.
Edit: Apologies if this sounds harsh or aggressive towards you, that isn't my intention. I just believe this is the best solution yet to the OORP usage of Supernovas.
Supernovas! - Tenacity - 05-07-2008
bombers need more torpedo-like weapons. All these big energy cannons dont fit the role - sure, they do a lot of damage, but it doesnt make the ship feel any more like a bomber.
My opinion - drop the antimatter cannons, razors, and infernos from everything except capships, and make torpedoes do more damage so bombers will be inclined to use them.
Your ship doesnt say "Has two torpedo mounts" for nothing.
Supernovas! - Jinx - 05-07-2008
well, an alternative would be to make an ammo based but effective enough torpedo. - a real torpedo, how its meant to be - and leave the non ammo SN to the order exclusivly, yes.
i do not have an order char, so i can hardly argue for them - but i think it would boast the faction if they indeed had the best available equipment due to their special role. - they are restricted in using it in RP. - so, yes, i wouldn t mind to have bombers with twin 50k torpedos that took ammo. - 100k damage is nothing one can call useless. - mind, it would require someone that can CD the target... or the bomber takes a CD but "only" does 50k damage.
the order would be the only one that can fire a supernova + carrying a CD. - they would have the technology edge over everyone else. - if their equipment was restricted to them, it won t make a huge balancing impact.
personally, i have never used the nova torp. - but why don t we make it so that two of them can be fired simultanously. - are they inefficient against capital ships? - they do have a good blast radius and a lot of damage...
Supernovas! - ParanoidAndroid - 05-07-2008
' Wrote:The Supernova is a vital piece of equipment for bombers. Without the Supernova, a Bomber is useless at their job: destroying capital ships. If you wish to restrict that, fine. Expect nobody to use them anymore.
And that's another why I support this idea.