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+--- Thread: Zoners (/showthread.php?tid=98709)
RE: Zoners - n00bl3t - 05-21-2013
(05-20-2013, 07:27 PM)Anaximander Wrote:(05-20-2013, 05:16 AM)n00bl3t Wrote: Small errors with times and so on, since it was written 3 years ago, but the point stands. Start targeting others for the no-cap policy first.
I don't at all see it like that. Sure Rheinland had a financial breakdown BUT they have a working infrastructure, universities, suppliers, manufacturers and the necessary service industries to cater for workers and their needs. And a long tradition of producing war ships (the Turtle is ancient). In the case of Rheinland, they have everything needed except cold credits, which is the one thing in the entire manufacturing process that is the easiest to obtain (loans, state bonds and so on).
Outcasts and Corsairs have their own planets, they have been settled on planets for hundreds of years, they have a nation/an empire (strong unity), and it would fair to assume that Outcasts and Corsairs have a working infrastructure (otherwise there would have been mention of revolts over the years). The Corsairs had a close alliance with the Battleship-stealing Order; in Disco lore that evolved to them sharing tech; and I'd say that is pretty well backed up. The Outcasts are supposedly super-intelligent; it would be reasonable to assume that they would use their large intellect and vast life-span to reverse engineer stolen tech/sleeper ships (again something Zoners wouldn't be able to do simply because they have no sleeper ship or enemies to steal tech from) and so on to figure out how to build Battleships. It would be in their best interest now that their direct enemy, who swears to pillage, murder and eat each and every Outcast (another motivation Zoners lack with their Mary-Sue diplomatic status), stepped up the arms race. Their very survival depends on stopping the Corsairs. Outcasts are formidable manufacturers of weapons already too.
Zoners on the other hand, the children of artists, painters, edge-world dwellers and so on, who turned their backs on organized society to live in peace and solitude; how did they manage this feat? There's no social structure, no established society, no unity etc. etc. etc. In fact Zoners declare themselves the anti-thesis of established society - and that without a cost due to haphazard/naïve dev work. In the Zoner case it is about making something out of nothing, and exactly that rubs me the wrong way because it goes against one of the most fundamental laws of nature.
In short: Just because lore could be even better for other factions too doesn't mean that we should all be npnp in the face of the extremely lagging Zoner lore.
They had no resources left. Explain to me where they got them. (Point is you cannot, try as hard as you may. We magically spawned more resources and changed what vanilla is. Also, RHEINLANDRHEINLANDRHEINLAND, since repeating a name three times seems to be counted as an effective argument in these parts.)
Corsairs and Outcasts have been also locked in their stalemate war in which they throw the vast majority of their warring resources, for more resources, in case your forgot. (Because it's a turf war, but Discovery brought the traitorous Hispanic house RP into it and made it ideological as well.)
Also, Corsair and The Order alliance was like was 5 years if that? Zoner and The Order alliance is 4 times as much or so?
That's a great ad hominem, but Zoners are not only the descendants of painters. Soldiers, spies and mercenaries have retired or fled to our ranks. Who knows what numbers there are? Well, definitely not someone who does not play a Zoner.
Past that, there is order and has been order in the Zoners. There is an order of capitalist semi-Libertonian traders, religious nuts in the Taus, religious nuts in the Omicrons, traders who don't mind fighting, a few councils, a confederation and the list goes on. It may not be the "Yes Colonel Sir" you're used to, but it works. A group is simply more than one person, and they exist. When they become big enough, they have influence to do and change things. I do hope you understand this basic posit of nature.
No, it doesn't. But the Zoners have a clearer claim to capital vessels than any of the others I've mentioned, and just because you say you don't see it like that doesn't change that.
RE: Zoners - Crackpunch - 05-21-2013
What's with Zoner supporters trying to change the subject by saying "Other factions have cap ships when they shouldn't!" ?
Let's deal with Zoners first, then we can sort everyone else out, okay?
RE: Zoners - Anaximander - 05-21-2013
Look, when I say I find Zoner lore lacking, it is not a personal attack.
You say "who knows how many Zoners there are", and I fully agree - we need Lore to back up Zoner presence in-game. There need to be more details, more of a framework; and less Mary Sue lore of "Zoners are whatever you want them to be".
And please don't lecture me on ad hominem attacks and then go on by describing "what I am used to" - and where the hell did I say that Zoners needed to be all "Sir Colonel Sir"???
You say that a group is more than one person (naturally) and "when they become big enough, they have influence to do and change things" - how does that correlate with the capacity to build battleships? There's too much magic and too little realism in the Zoner story.
RE: Zoners - SMGSterlin - 05-21-2013
(05-21-2013, 08:30 AM)Ed- Wrote: The Commonwealth. Nephs are outta the questionNoted.
Obsidian Zoetic did not use caps afaik. Or least they did not spam them.
Jumping Zoners maybe? (except the jumping carrier), though the faction was purely for money making so..
.
note that they used ( cw still using ) the generic zoner id.
Unfortunately, only the Commonwealth is still flying as the others disbanded afaik
Thank you for clearing that up.
(05-21-2013, 11:58 AM)n00bl3t Wrote: Also, RHEINLANDRHEINLANDRHEINLAND, since repeating a name three times seems to be counted as an effective argument in these parts.I lol'd.
So true.
RE: Zoners - Curios - 05-22-2013
@Anaximander
When saying "Zoner lore is lacking" you're personally attacking any zoner.
This somehow goes ok with other factions.
No idea what is going on...
RE: Zoners - n00bl3t - 05-22-2013
(05-21-2013, 12:03 PM)Crackpunch Wrote: What's with Zoner supporters trying to change the subject by saying "Other factions have cap ships when they shouldn't!" ?
Let's deal with Zoners first, then we can sort everyone else out, okay?
I am going to enjoy starting useless threads with other faction names on them demanding an explanation for their capitals and how it fits with their lore. Chances are, despite having even more justification than this thread, it'll be ignored because it's cool to hate on Zoners.
(05-21-2013, 12:07 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Look, when I say I find Zoner lore lacking, it is not a personal attack.
You say "who knows how many Zoners there are", and I fully agree - we need Lore to back up Zoner presence in-game. There need to be more details, more of a framework; and less Mary Sue lore of "Zoners are whatever you want them to be".
And please don't lecture me on ad hominem attacks and then go on by describing "what I am used to" - and where the hell did I say that Zoners needed to be all "Sir Colonel Sir"???
You say that a group is more than one person (naturally) and "when they become big enough, they have influence to do and change things" - how does that correlate with the capacity to build battleships? There's too much magic and too little realism in the Zoner story.
I do not take any statements you make about Zoner lore to be a personal attack, because for the most part you don't seem to understand Zoner lore. (This is depicted with how you painted Zoners as only being descendants of X, Y and Z in an earlier post.)
How many Hessians are there? More than Corsairs, but Corsairs are more skilled. How many Corsairs are there? More than Outcasts, but Outcasts are more skilled. Give a number? Kind of hard there. How many Zoners are there? Less than Outcasts I suppose, but more than The Order and more than the Core. I daresay Jinx would have a more accurate comparison in his head.
I said what you are used to because it seems to be the truth. You do not seem to understand the order in anarchy, or the power of smaller factions influencing a larger whole, which is how the Zoners work. No need to take offense to it.
Like I said earlier, pick on the other factions first which have less justification than Zoners and then come back to Zoners. Zoner players will be using the same arguments the other factions will.
RE: Zoners - Anaximander - 05-22-2013
Lol please stop telling me what I do and do not understand - when you are clearly aware of the concept of rhetorical fallacies, why do you keep on with this strategy?
I never said that Zoners were descendants of JUST those groups; I simply just chose a handful of trades and listed them there; if I had to list each and every Zoner's background it would be a very long post. Please do understand that.
I could give you roughly estimated numbers for Sairs and Outcasts, but it would require I logged in and looked at Crete's and Malta's infocards.
And again with the ad hominems... For your information; I lived in an anarchist commune in Copenhagen when I was in my early 20's; I studied sociology and I believe I do have a pretty good idea of anarchy as a social structure. I am also aware of the shortcomings of said form of governance. It ain't all that rosy, and simply put if anarchism could supply the higher standard of living (through science, technology and wealth) we all yearn for; it would be a model for full societies around the world. The sad fact is that anarchism cannot provide (look at Catalonia and Aragon that experimented with anarchism during the civil war, some of the pre-Soviet nations had unfortunate experiments with anarchism as a form of rule too); which makes the idea of anarchists designing, producing and maintaining 2 types of battleships and 2 types of cruisers in merely 20 years absolutely ludicrous. Unless, of course, you know absolutely 0 about anarchism but just think it sounds cool and magical.
This topic is about Zoners, so no the exercise isn't about Hessians, Sairs or Outcasts. Pardon my curtness, but you should create a different thread for that if you can't handle discussing Zoners.
RE: Zoners - Jinx - 05-22-2013
there is something very positive to say about zoners aside from all the complaints from non zoners
the zoners - in the years from 07 to 13 have NEVER suffered from activity problems - not a single thread complaining that "Zoners are dead" - they have had so many creative and positive players that the devs had to nerf them down continously - cause their popularity was just too great lol ( of course - that was mainly due to their amazing moneymaking freedom ... yeah )
so - kudos to zoner players for being one of the very few activity pillars of disco that has never been shaken - and that is not due to their amazing OP pvp gear or their utmost freedom to pvp everyone they want. these days - there are even factions with much better reputation systems and trade opportunities around.
i love how the zoners just always found some major movements within their lore
the CoZ, the ZA ( back then - or even the new one ), the fuss about the princess, the political in-fighting among the factions, the confederation of freeports, the re-organizing AND the open mind of the official factions to allow great responsibilities for indie freeport admins - how official factions and indies really work well together.
there has hardly been a dull moment. - so - maybe zoners are a prime target, cause they are so good at entertaining the entire server sometimes ... with tele-novela-like drama. many other factions don t even manage that - they are just dull. nearly everyone has an opinion about zoners.
ask around what opinion ppl have about the bundschuh - or the GC - and you ll find out that ppl have a lot less to say about them. ( or even outcasts, hessians or rogues - very large and popular factions )
RE: Zoners - Anaximander - 05-22-2013
I'm not a non-Zoner; how could you know what characters people play?
Some people really need to let go of the "it's us against the world" mentality. It has blocked all progress on getting Zoner lore fixed (do a quick search and see how many times the "why u pick on us?" is brought up in Zoner discussions), which would make the faction more enjoyable to play and encounter for a lot of players. I'm not trying to pick on Zoners, they are not a "prime target" of mine; I simply voice my opinions and questions regarding Zoner lore and get told I'm the bogeyman or "know nothing" as a reply.
Of course Zoners have a lot of activity when the ID and ship line allows just about everything from defensive cap warfare to jumptrading and so on. Zoners can do it all and have no ZOI, ID or Lore limitations, and that cannibalizes on the prospect of activity for other factions and ID's (e.g. why should I make a jumping IMG trade fleet, when there are that many more limitations and hostiles as an IMG player?). When things are kept like that, of course Zoners will always have a lot of activity, it's de facto a blank ID with blank diplomacy and blank lore (and a very impressive ship line); larger groups like OSI, TAZ and Omicroners have then filled out the blanks at their leisure and adhere to that (which is fine) but the start-off point is severely lacking, making everything possible without consequences.
Of course some people will address the Zoner-issue because it has a huge impact on their own ideas, characters and factions - whereas GC and Bundschuh are minor factions that haven't been "evolved" into leviathans and aren't at all as significant.
It's not "Zoner hate", it's rather "Disco love".
RE: Zoners - SMGSterlin - 05-22-2013
(05-22-2013, 11:48 AM)Anaximander Wrote: Some people really need to let go of the "it's us against the world" mentality. It has blocked all progress on getting Zoner lore fixed (do a quick search and see how many times the "why u pick on us?" is brought up in Zoner discussions), which would make the faction more enjoyable to play and encounter for a lot of players. I'm not trying to pick on Zoners, they are not a "prime target" of mine; I simply voice my opinions and questions regarding Zoner lore and get told I'm the bogeyman or "know nothing" as a reply.This is so true.
People who play Zoner characters typically have a harder time separating RP from OORP, and they portray themselves as players into Zoner characters. "You just don't like me because I'm a Zoner", no, you're not a Zoner, you are a person, your character may be a Zoner, but YOU are not.
Of course, I have this same problem in relation to being a trader, so maybe I'm a pot and they're kettles, but the fact remains true. >_> <_<