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+--- Thread: Let's talk Gaians (/showthread.php?tid=19136)
Let's talk Gaians - Zelot - 04-12-2009
' Wrote:Not at all, I'm saying the level of irrationality shown by the Gaian belief system is on-par with the level of irrationality rarely seen outside of certain religious groups. It's the Gaian belief that lifeless planets should be left alone so that they may evolve in whatever way the universe sees fit (despite the fact that the lifeless world will never spontaneously develop life) that makes them sound religious.
and again what is the irrationality? There have been all sorts of terrorist groups not based on religion. The most famous terrorist groups in the world, up until the late 1990's were nationalist terrorist groups not religious ones. The PLO, The IRA, Tamil Tigers, PKK (Kurdish Workers Party) and ETA in Spain. None are religous groups.
I see the Gaians as a Freelancer era terrorist group based more on the Conservation mentality than the environmental movement. This is from the Encartas article on the American Conservation movement, speaking about other ideas of Conservation.
Quote:
In other parts of the world conservation is used more broadly to include the setting aside of natural areas and the active protection of wildlife for their inherent value, as much as for any value they may have for humans.
This idea is not based on religion, but instead on the idea that things have an inherent value and by destroying them or changing them you destroy that value.
Let's talk Gaians - Elsdragon - 04-12-2009
thank you ze'ev
Let's talk Gaians - Drake - 04-12-2009
The belief that bringing life to a previously lifeless ball of rock is worth killing over would be considered irrational by most everyone. We're not talking about destroying a natural ecosystem, we're talking about creating an ecosystem where there is none, and never will be without outside interference.
That's the irrational part, and I've said it's irrational on a level mostly only seen among certain religious groups. There are lots of other violent terroristic groups, but generally they kill for (to put it bluntly) better reasons, or at least more understandable reasons. If the Gaians were killing for financial reasons, or because people were starving, or because life (in any form) was getting destroyed, or because their land was being taken from them, those would all be somewhat understandable and rational.
That leads to the other point, the reason why I see religiousness among the Gaians. While I say that their level of irrationality equals that of some religious irrationality, that's not the reason why I see them as religious. I see them as religious because their (irrational) reasons for violently opposing dead world terraforming sound religious. 'Even a lifeless planet has value, and should be let to evolve on its own, untouched, however the universe sees fit', etc. That belief is fine, but it sounds like a quasi-religious belief, even if they don't call it that. It's the taking of that belief and killing over it that makes them seem irrational.
Let's talk Gaians - Marburg - 04-12-2009
' Wrote:The belief that bringing life to a previously lifeless ball of rock is worth killing over would be considered irrational by most everyone. We're not talking about destroying a natural ecosystem, we're talking about creating an ecosystem where there is none, and never will be without outside interference.Gaians don't care if a planet ever develops life on it or not. The whole point is that they do not want the ecosystem of any planet unnaturally interfered with. Terraforming was invented by humans, & when humans terraform a planet they introduce human error into an otherwise perfect system that should otherwise develop on it's own.
As far as a planet developing life, if it takes a billion years before conditions are right for even a one celled organisim to develop, then that's how long it should take. trying to speed it up unnaturally runs a huge risk of breaking the symbiotic circle the planet is a part of. What makes things better for humans is 100% irrelevant
Let's talk Gaians - Drake - 04-12-2009
Dead planet = No life, no ecosystem, no symbiotic relationship.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary Wrote:Ecosystem: The complex of a community of organisms and its environment functioning as an ecological unit.
Edit: I understand what the Gaians believe, and it's what they believe that sounds almost religious to me. It's the extent to which they take those beliefs (killing to prevent terraforming of lifeless planets) which is irrational. Killing people to protect a nonexistent ecosystem? That doesn't sound rational to me.
Let's talk Gaians - Hawkwings - 04-12-2009
What exactly are you arguing, Drake? That the reason for the Gaians to exist doesn't make sense? That their objectives are wrong somehow? Whatever your argument is, the fact is that Gaians do exist, and they oppose terraforming in general, and Planetform specifically. This is as it was laid down in vanilla, and infocards and base descriptions support that.
Let's talk Gaians - Drake - 04-12-2009
' Wrote:What exactly are you arguing, Drake? That the reason for the Gaians to exist doesn't make sense? That their objectives are wrong somehow? Whatever your argument is, the fact is that Gaians do exist, and they oppose terraforming in general, and Planetform specifically. This is as it was laid down in vanilla, and infocards and base descriptions support that.I posted my opinions early on, since then I'm just responding to posts directed my way. I'm not arguing anything against the Gaians, though I do disagree with some bits (Corsair and Kusari alliances are the big ones), overall I'm fine with them.
Let's talk Gaians - Marburg - 04-12-2009
you're good at splitting heirs, dat's fo sho.
Anyway, yes even a lifeless planet is part of a bigger whole
heh! the moon has no life on it whatsover, yet is part of our ecosystem. Terraform it & it will make the earth unlivable.
for example, add oceans & greenery to the moon & it ceases to shine as brightly. Some nocturnal creatures loose light to hunt by & a large number starve & the food chain breaks or even worse, the extra weight of the moon oceans & plantlife effect the level of the tides on earth breaking the food chain there.
Anyway, fact of the matter is from a Gaian POV, every planet is it's own organisim & if you mess with one you effect 'em all
Let's talk Gaians - Drake - 04-12-2009
Harris is the only planet in the system, and we're not talking about terraforming moons, we're talking planets. If we somehow turned Mars or Venus into a leafy green world, it would have absolutely zero effect on the ecosystem of Earth.
I understand the Gaian PoV. The extremes to which they take it is irrational. But people often are irrational, so it's no big deal.
Let's talk Gaians - Marburg - 04-12-2009
' Wrote:Harris is the only planet in the system, and we're not talking about terraforming moons, we're talking planets. If we somehow turned Mars or Venus into a leafy green world, it would have absolutely zero effect on the ecosystem of Earth.Moons, planets=same difference. Anyhoo, terraform mars or venus & yes, you bet it will effect the earth. The effects may not be obvious or understandable to our current limited knowledge, but when you terraform a body, it changes it's dynamic effect on the space around it...& that change is a domino effect that effects everything else far beyond it's epicenter.
I understand the Gaian PoV. The extremes to which they take it is irrational. But people often are irrational, so it's no big deal.
::edit- to be clear, it's just a simple matter of cause & effect. physics works the exact same way on a galactic level as it does on a microscopic level::