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+---- Thread: Mining (/showthread.php?tid=20031)
Mining - Markus.Schiller - 05-06-2009
Such a valid test... Bring actual figures, and detail what the trader is earning, and what each player earns. Do it a few times so you have more results.
Mining - Harcourt.Fenton.Mudd - 05-06-2009
' Wrote:Such a valid test... Bring actual figures, and detail what the trader is earning, and what each player earns. Do it a few times so you have more results.
We did multiple trips, were at it for bout 45mins-hour forget for sure how long, and made 48mil. Thats 16mil per person.
Anyway, feel free to test it yourself, the FIRST problem you'll encounter is simply FINDING enough people to make it semi decent.
Mining - mjolnir - 05-06-2009
If you follow the mining logic a bit it's all about short-range (in-system) mining being not so profitable, while long-range one should be better.
Mining - gekerd - 05-06-2009
Change one thing then (while not being realistic) make places where you can mine commodities, relatively closer to the place where it's sold for high profit, than the place you can buy the commodity very cheap (so make mining at such places worth more than trading from the base just next to it)
Like removing places where Niobium is sold (jave for instance)
Mining - Rudo - 05-06-2009
Funny question about scrap mining:
Let's say Bornholm is deemed too profitable for the risks involved. Never mind the fact that the lolwutter caps will mow down people there if they're bored and want a blue message, as that's unintended and something the admins will put a heavy boot on if people come forward. Never mind any possible RP for the reasons behind the scrap being worth so much, or anything of equal possible merit. We want straightforward numbers here.
So Bornholm gets the stick. Scrap needs to be sold elsewhere, but at a reasonable price in comparison to other mining spots or else no one will do it. Keep in mind the price Bornholm buys it at is the highest in the mod by far; you've got prisons and Culebra buying it at a bit over 300/unit, but that involves more travel time. Compare that to sell points for Polymers, Niobium, Copper... anything at all, really. Let's say another Junker station out there buys scrap at a price that's reasonable in comparison to all those other mined commodities.
- It has to be a Junker station that's somewhat accessible, yet isn't right smack dab where everyone can reach it.
- It has to be a Junker station that itself isn't inside or near a scrap field. Not one in Gallia either, please.
That leaves what... Allentown? Invergordon? Thunder Bay?- It has to be a Junker station that itself isn't inside or near a scrap field. Not one in Gallia either, please.
- There needs to be a reasonable motive for this station to buy scrap; is it going to be resold somewhere else, or will it be smelted and made into something, that product sold elsewhere else?
Maybe there is a legitimate reason behind Bornholm charging so much for the metal. From the Congress Directives page I've been poking at off and on:Quote:Omega-15
Current Situation:
The investigation continues. We are still trying to find what transpired here, but little technology we can reverse-engineer has surfaced. We continue to maintain the facade of a salvage operation with an artificially elevated price on the metal, to ensure the greedy outsiders who sneak in on our claim at least sell off their ill-gotten metal where it's intended to go. We've taken to shipping out finished alloys to further offset the costs of the Gruinder Project, already well-repaid by opening the base as a supply depot for those that know the way in. The Junkers are advised to defend their claim for the sake of insurance and for keeping the credits in our hands.
Enemies:
None
Local Challenges:
Bounty Hunters: Omega-15 has the misfortune of being a central rallying point for the Core, constructing enormous capital-class ships for a war out in the deep dark ends of space. Misguided Hunters occasionally come in and harass the locals with volleys of capital-class turret fire. The station has taken damage, but repair is quick and feasible with the surplus of alloys about. Core vessels are to be avoided until Bornholm comes under threat, and then they are to be repelled.
Rheinland Military: They simply guard the pathway into Dresden against Hessians and Corsairs who may slip in that way. Do not impede in any way, cooperate if called upon. Note: Rogue capital-class vessels have made their way into the Gruinder in the past. If attacked, assume the vessel is infected and is attempting to cover the nomads' tracks here. Terminate with extreme prejudice.
Docking Rights & Circumstances:
The Congress has clearance to dock at these locations, and only these locations:
- Bornholm
Conduct:
Charging a premium to claimjumpers is encouraged. Driving off freeloaders is equally encouraged. Combat-oriented vessels are on a defense-only order unless dealing with an unauthorized salvage operation. Junker salvage of the Gruinder is heavily encouraged. The true purpose of Bornholm is a Junker-only secret and must remain that way.
Now, that itself is what I'm going with in regards to the price and why it is what it is. I'll be fine with rewriting it if you guys decide it needs to be 'balanced' in line with this idea that everyone's having. But keep in mind that it's not a terribly abused field; you don't see masses of mining ships sitting in the Gruinder with BHBC "escorts" and Corsairs and Hessians pirating everything in sight.
My final word: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Mining - khran - 05-06-2009
' Wrote:We did multiple trips, were at it for bout 45mins-hour forget for sure how long, and made 48mil. Thats 16mil per person.
Anyway, feel free to test it yourself, the FIRST problem you'll encounter is simply FINDING enough people to make it semi decent.
You utterly fail at mining if you're only hitting 16-20mil per hour per person there. I make 50% more than that at Java station running solo and that's still not as good as Omega49. :sleep:
I do think mining should be more profitable than trading for the work you have to put in, but honestly I make just as much right now as I use to on some very good trade routes. If there are that many people making 40-50mil an hour trading (I make 30-40 mining), then give us commodities, give us stations, give us routes and times and HARD NUMBERS to PROVE that mining is that bad compared to trading. If you don't you're not going to convince anyone of anything.
Mining - Harcourt.Fenton.Mudd - 05-06-2009
I said it was maybe 45-60 mins, coulda been less, wasnt keeping track and it always seems longer than it was.
Mining - Encheta - 05-06-2009
' Wrote:If you follow the mining logic a bit it's all about short-range (in-system) mining being not so profitable, while long-range one should be better.
That may be the current logic But I can prove that it isn't the case (and probly isn't possible at all).
The IMG now have a new rule of thumb when it comes to determining the number of transports needed for a mining party. It's a bit rough obviously - some systems are smaller than others etc. etc. but it's good for estimating. The rule is the you require the same number of transports as the number of systems away your selling location is. So for example, if you are mining and the selling point is 2 systems away, you need three transports (2 systems plus the one for the system you're mining in).
Now, for it to be worthwhile adding ONE extra transport to a party, you need to be able to earn 1/N more than you would be without it (where N is the current number of ships you have). Note that I said if you wanted to add one - you'll have to repeat the step if you want more than one in your group. I know I can make a formula that can do the addition of multiple transports in one step, but I'm tired and lethargic..
Harcourt said the group earnt 48mil in around 45mins - he wasn't sure. Thankfully though for this calculation time is irrelevant, so I'll just extrapolate it as it is.. Giving 64mil/hr, split across 3 players making 21.33mil/hr.
This is short range mining, supposed to be not so profitable, so lets see how a selling point further away goes.. The next closest (and coincidently the highest) selling point is Leipzig station in Dresdon, 5 jumps away if you take the most direct path, so we need five more transports (or 8 players) to maintain peak efficiency (approximately). Taking the steps of the formula to get the needed profit:
3 players -> 64mil/hr
4 players -> 64+(64(1/3)) = 85.33mil/hr
5 players -> 85.33+(85.33(1/4)) = 106.66
6 players -> ..... = 128
7 players -> ... = 149.33
8 players -> 170.66mil/hr
170.66/64=2.6666=266.66%
So in order to justify the extra 5 transports, we have to be earning -at least- 2.66x (266.66%) more at Leipzig than if we were selling at GC. Note that our mining output hasn't changed - we still have 2 miners, not that we want to increase output or we'll need more transports. Let's also skip the fact Leipzig is a Dauman base and IMG can't land there, as well as that the most direct route goes through corsair territory which will make transportation dangerous at best. Let's see how we do by comparing the selling prices of the two bases:
2511/1813=1.3849=138.49%
Not worth it.
EDIT: Didn't see the last couple posts pop us while I was writing this. Time doesn't matter for these calculations thankfully, replace mil/hr with mil/2hrs, mil/half hr, mil/min even. It still doesn't change that the current ideology (if it is the accepted ideology) that the further you travel with mined goods, the more profit you get, is false. Perhaps that can be the case for trading, but it certainly isn't for mining.
<strike>EDIT2: Also, ok, Harcourts measurements has too much doubt to say it's accurately timed. But if it is though, 21mil/hr per player in my books is a broken or not very worthwhile field to mine in, and if all fields are changed to that, I don't see why someone would choose mining over trading (or even do mining altogether).</strike> Forget I said this. This post has become too much rant as it is without it - somthing I wanted to avoid..
Mining - Harcourt.Fenton.Mudd - 05-07-2009
Ok took the time to TIME a run.
I had a waypoint into the mining zone before hand.
I launched, targeted the waypoint,, turret moded, F2'd and then immeditly targeted the moor for GC.
When I got in the mining zone, I killed GoTO, and came ot a stop, enterd cockpit view, and activated mouse flight, then begain shooting stuff.
When full, hit F2 to return to moor, speed docked, sold.
I was chatting BREIFLY with another miner, and mostly kept shooting while doing so. With chances for random drup values and random 'stuff happens' interference, I feel that did not corrupt the data.
Ten minutes Five seconds (10:05) round trip for 4.9mil credits.
At ten minutes per trip, in an hour you can make 29.4 mil in a mining ship mining at omega 49.
In THREE and a half hours, you can make 102.9 (as a baseline for 100mil)
As I understand, the better trading routes pull in MUCH more than that in 5k transports, but I havent power traded since .84 so Im not sure.
If possible could a trader with good routes do a round trip and time it from launch to final sell, so we could compare, that would help greatly.
But as stands, it seems rather pointless to mine. I'm going to do a trade run with my mining ship, see how it compares.
Mining - Grumblesaur - 05-08-2009
' Wrote:If you follow the mining logic a bit it's all about short-range (in-system) mining being not so profitable, while long-range one should be better.
Okay, in real life, do you see mining carts going 200 miles to sell coal, or do you see them dropping the stuff off at a nearby drop outpost so that it can be processed and delivered to a train/boat/truck to be taken elsewhere?