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+---- Thread: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions (/showthread.php?tid=110566)
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - RedEclipse - 01-21-2014
I've told in my every post in this thread how to fix this problem.
Amen. Do not need to reinvent the wheel.
ADD:
Just use the same way which working with other factions. It's not about restrict players. If player want cap - simple SRP or join faction. You have to raise a hand to take an apple.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Haste - 01-21-2014
(01-21-2014, 12:53 PM)NonSequitor Wrote: 1. Nearly every vanilla factions' shipline has been expanded. If the Zoners get their big toys taken away, then an awkward question arises: what is the rationale behind the other non-house factions having capital ships? Then players with their own agendas will attempt to "objectively" argue why there faction needs and deserves big caps. More drama ensues.
Although this is no longer viable, I'd say that non-house caps should have been SRP or otherwise restricted from the get-go. Want the very unusual and in-roleplay very rare ships? Work for them. LR- has what, two Scyllas according to their own lore? Sometimes there's half a dozen of indie ones floating around.
(01-21-2014, 12:53 PM)NonSequitor Wrote: 2. Not everyone wants to RP a house pilot (with all the goofy nationalistic stereotypes that often includes), a BHG Core pilot, an Order pilot, or a pirate house pilot (more goofy stereotypes). Zoner RP is dynamic and less restrictive. Less shackles on creativity.
[/qupte]
Uh. You don't need to roleplay a stereotypical character. It is, of course, logical that a navy pilot acts military, and is probably somewhat patriotic and proud of his/her house's culture and traditions.
[quote='NonSequitor' pid='1470544' dateline='1390305207']
3. Bombers kill everything anyway, so what's the fuss.
I don't think that combat is the issue here. The issue is that people come up with all these un-Zonerish factions that claim to have a massive fleet, even though the Zoners logically wouldn't have any noteworthy fleet.
Anyhow, it is of course true that the Zoner faction isn't the only one that expanded way too much since vanilla, but it is one of the silliest examples. The vanilla Zoner faction literally consisted of 7 Freeports - one of which was destroyed - and Ames Research Station. Now, they have shipyards, carriers, mine fields and all that other nonsense.
Perhaps we could shrink down all the factions that grew just a bit too much.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Mercarryn - 01-21-2014
Hmm, just an idea that perhaps might be a REAL compromise, i.e. keeping the ships as they are ( to some extent) and at the same time ensure that there are less Zoner indies abusing the caps as offensive weapons.
All zoner caps (cruiser and higher) are able to mount both their appropriate weapons (means cruiser weapons on cruisers and bs weapons on the bs), and mount transport turrets on the same slots.
And here comes the real important change: The normal zoner ID get a little additional sentence in their Infocard, something like:
-May only mount transport turrets on capital ships of cruiser size and higher.
Before anyone starts to say: "WTF are you suggesting, Merc? Impossible!"
Do you perhaps remember the Ahoudori in combination with the Researcher ID?
Ahoudori is able to mount both gunboat and transport turrets. And the researcher ID in 4.85 only allowed the use of an Ahoudori in combination with transport turrets.
Result: The Zoner caps in combination with normal zoner ID could not be abused for acting like military, yet other factions that can utilize them like the Order (Yes, I know, I sound biased, see my last post) can utilize them as military ships with some roleplay reason. The same can be applied to the three official factions.
How does that sound?
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - RedEclipse - 01-21-2014
That's sounds rather interesting, Merc. But I think it doesn't met Jinx requirements somehow nerf all Zoners.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Jinx - 01-21-2014
@Merc:
good compromise - but the transport weapons are not balanced for the sizes of ships like the juggernaut. - their ranges are simply too low -- BUT with adjusted models - that compromise might actually fly. ( think of the suggested ships - with the option to mount capital class weaponry - thats fine if it is agreed on )
@RedEclipse:
i am very sad that you think it is a nerf. - but i won t be able to change your opinion about it. - it is as much a nerf as adding a ship to the line is.
explanation:
nerf: same thing - but worse
what is suggested is to make them different - TAKE strengths in specific places and REPLACE it with other strengths in other more logical places.
only if you focus on pvp - you may think of a nerf. cause yes - pvp-wise - it will be a nerf. - so what about it - is the focus of zoner caps the pvp?
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Toan Varcona - 01-21-2014
hello all I stumbled across this thread and thought "oh Crap" another zoner minefield, since there are SO many different opinions regarding zoners, ill make my viewpoint known.
Yes I play as my "Space Exploration Force" [S.E.F~ ingame] most of the time yes we are zoners, we do TRY and do everything with RP and diplomacy, as zoners should, in my opinion zoners are not like a house military in any way but still require a way to defend themselves incase diplomacy and co-existence fails for some reason,
I get the impression zoners are supposed to take what ever crap flies their way lying down and do nothing about it, zoners are HUMAN so they will only take so much crap before they say " enough is enough " and start to DEFEND themelves
the later can be very hard if said zoner factions under attack are small, and lack the player count to properly defend themselves...
[a bit hard when your passing through a system and get 6 other players stop your ship and fire a 50 million fine from a empty spatial because they looking for a quick blue message just because your a zoner.]
"oh look a zoner GANKSquad attack time" attitude my small faction seem to be facing a lot of late, I do not know if this is effecting other zoners/ zoner factions,
that's just one example of when no matter how hard a zoner tries to RP with EVERYONE as best he can as a zoner
as for the ships I just don't know what to think, its just not that simple anymore, yeah the zoners could do maybe with more survivability rather than Raw firepower
while I like the idea of Qships and battle transports, I don't really fancy loosing our zoner cap ships which we RP as exploration ships every chance we get since that what our faction does, some of these RP platforms took years to evolve into what they are, and to have them drastically changed could really impact the feel and the Rp,
my opinions are split between revision and keeping what we have
just my thoughts on this
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Pancakes - 01-21-2014
(01-21-2014, 02:10 PM)Toan Varcona Wrote: hello all I stumbled across this thread and thought "oh Crap" another zoner minefield, since there are SO many different opinions regarding zoners, ill make my viewpoint known.
Yes I play as my "Space Exploration Force" [S.E.F~ ingame] most of the time yes we are zoners, we do TRY and do everything with RP and diplomacy, as zoners should, in my opinion zoners are not like a house military in any way but still require a way to defend themselves incase diplomacy and co-existence fails for some reason,
I get the impression zoners are supposed to take what ever crap flies their way lying down and do nothing about it, zoners are HUMAN so they will only take so much crap before they say " enough is enough " and start to DEFEND themelves
the later can be very hard if said zoner factions under attack are small, and lack the player count to properly defend themselves...
[that's a bit hard when your passing through a system and get 6 other players stop your ship and fire a 50 million fine from a empty spatial because they looking for a quick blue message just because your a zoner.]
that's just one example of when no matter how hard a zoner tries to RP with EVERYONE as best he can as a zoner , but maybe the "oh look a zoner GANKSquad attack time" attitude my small faction seem to be facing a lot of late
as for the ships I just don't know what to think, its just not that simple anymore, yeah the zoners could do maybe with more survivability rather than Raw firepower
while I like the idea of Qships and battle transports, I don't really fancy loosing our zoner cap ships which we RP as exploration ships every chance we get since that what our faction does, some of these RP platforms took years to evolve into what they are, and to have them drastically changed could really impact the feel and the Rp,
my opinions are split between revision and keeping what we have
just my thoughts on this
All you've mentioned is fine and all, but why you need your ship to be a dreadnaught for it to be a good RP platform? Would it be any worse for that use as a Liner?
I doubt.
As for defending yourself - you have many factions that are independent and yet don't count on cap fire-power. 2 good examples for that would be GMG and IMG.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Mímir - 01-21-2014
(01-21-2014, 02:10 PM)Toan Varcona Wrote: I get the impression zoners are supposed to take what ever crap flies their way lying down and do nothing about it, zoners are HUMAN so they will only take so much crap before they say " enough is enough " and start to DEFEND themelves
And the moment they start to DEFEND themselves and be HUMAN and take no crap, the bigger boys in the region will stomp them out. That's the dilemma you have to work your way around as a Zoner, heck that is what makes Zoners fun and interesting in the first place. They aren't just a generic neutral trade faction with warships, they are SO much more and I think Zoners as a whole could blossom if a few changes were made to aid players along.
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Toan Varcona - 01-21-2014
(01-21-2014, 02:14 PM)Pancakes Wrote:(01-21-2014, 02:10 PM)Toan Varcona Wrote: hello all I stumbled across this thread and thought "oh Crap" another zoner minefield, since there are SO many different opinions regarding zoners, ill make my viewpoint known.
Yes I play as my "Space Exploration Force" [S.E.F~ ingame] most of the time yes we are zoners, we do TRY and do everything with RP and diplomacy, as zoners should, in my opinion zoners are not like a house military in any way but still require a way to defend themselves incase diplomacy and co-existence fails for some reason,
I get the impression zoners are supposed to take what ever crap flies their way lying down and do nothing about it, zoners are HUMAN so they will only take so much crap before they say " enough is enough " and start to DEFEND themelves
the later can be very hard if said zoner factions under attack are small, and lack the player count to properly defend themselves...
[that's a bit hard when your passing through a system and get 6 other players stop your ship and fire a 50 million fine from a empty spatial because they looking for a quick blue message just because your a zoner.]
that's just one example of when no matter how hard a zoner tries to RP with EVERYONE as best he can as a zoner , but maybe the "oh look a zoner GANKSquad attack time" attitude my small faction seem to be facing a lot of late
as for the ships I just don't know what to think, its just not that simple anymore, yeah the zoners could do maybe with more survivability rather than Raw firepower
while I like the idea of Qships and battle transports, I don't really fancy loosing our zoner cap ships which we RP as exploration ships every chance we get since that what our faction does, some of these RP platforms took years to evolve into what they are, and to have them drastically changed could really impact the feel and the Rp,
my opinions are split between revision and keeping what we have
just my thoughts on this
All you've mentioned is fine and all, but why you need your ship to be a dreadnaught for it to be a good RP platform? Would it be any worse for that use as a Liner?
I doubt.
As for defending yourself - you have many factions that are independent and yet don't count on cap fire-power. 2 good examples for that would be GMG and IMG.
well the use of Nephilims as exploration craft is ideal since they can basicly sustain themselves for years on end and allow for really long missions that a liner cannot
true we don't always need caps to defend ourselves what my faction lacks is the manpower , despite being around for over 3 years, as I stated above imagine your in my shoes for a bit , your flying your spatial and boom set upon by 6 yes 6 combat craft while one fires a 50 million credit demand at you? what do ya do?
RE: revision of the ZONERS faction - to avoid yearly discussions - Toan Varcona - 01-21-2014
(01-21-2014, 02:18 PM)Mímir Wrote:(01-21-2014, 02:10 PM)Toan Varcona Wrote: I get the impression zoners are supposed to take what ever crap flies their way lying down and do nothing about it, zoners are HUMAN so they will only take so much crap before they say " enough is enough " and start to DEFEND themelves
And the moment they start to DEFEND themselves and be HUMAN and take no crap, the bigger boys in the region will stomp them out. That's the dilemma you have to work your way around as a Zoner, heck that is what makes Zoners fun and interesting in the first place. They aren't just a generic neutral trade faction with warships, they are SO much more and I think Zoners as a whole could blossom if a few changes were made to aid players along.
yes this part I agree with, and its very hard to be a "good Zoner " when everyone behind the controls want a quick kill and you happen to be alone and the target
Rp can only be as good as both sides taking part, not one doing the Rp the other doing the bare minimum and killing the whole atmosphere in the process
yes I think some adjustments to the zoner ships may be good thing , while I love the nephilim its way to clumsy, aquilon imo perfect exploration craft , fearless needs to be a bit more Q ship ish
I agree in most ways the zoners Don't need full blown Warships, but do need the be able to defend themselves from time to time
my opinion overall on zoner ship change , maybe increased defence [ better shields/hull maybe] less firepower,[ but enough to ward of the occasional foe]