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+--- Thread: The Truth about Zoners (/showthread.php?tid=115854)
RE: The Truth about Zoners - WesternPeregrine - 05-28-2014
(05-28-2014, 11:50 AM)Zen_Mechanics Wrote: Zoners were, and still are the number one faction used in Discovery ( by my read - and this might have changed in the last few months )
It might be semantics, but I believe Zoners are the number one ID used in terms of diversity, having 3 or 4 Factions that spawned from that ID and concept.
In terms of most used Faction, that would be the Junkers (in 2 groups) or the IMG (in a single group). Perhaps there is confusion between ID use, player faction influence, and the role of the NPC concept, and people don't know on which to rely on to guide them in the discussion of Zoners.
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I believe that in the question of the zoner capital line, they could be obtained by an organized zoner affiliated organization, like a player faction with the resources and bases to do so. However, I do not believe that the zoners (as in all with the ID) would be capable to build or obtain them, nor they would be entitled to own one just because there are caps with the name "Zoner" on them.
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In another topic, I do not believe that Zoners (as in all zoner people, players and NPC) would be able to maintain their neutrality stance and policy, eased access to House and Border World systems, and at the same time hold territorial ambitions, such as colonizing planets or declaring a whole system under Zoner rule.
More feasible would be a zoner affiliated or zoner-friendly organization declaring a political independence. But then that zoner-affiliated faction (which doesn't represent the Zoners as a whole) can't claim the well known Zoner neutrality policy and backing. They would have to stand by themselves, stand by their ambitions and cause. The other zoner factions could set their stances towards this new "independent world/base faction", just like each of them does towards the Corsairs or the Outcasts. Do be aware that when such factions attain such identity, they cannot claim that they represent the Zoners or influence their relations, for they are not all of the Zoners, and many zoners are not like them.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Lythrilux - 05-28-2014
(05-28-2014, 12:18 PM)Snak3 Wrote: Solution to make capital ships less exploitable:
"Aquilon" Zoner Carrier - Cruiser Turrets, BS Shield.
"Nephilim" Zoner Mobile Colony Ship - Cruiser Turrets, BS Shield.
"Corvo" Zoner Deep Space Explorer - Gunboat Turrets, Cruiser Shield
Zoner "Fearless" Q-ship - Cruiser Turrets, Cruiser Shield.
Here. No longer are they heavy capital ships that can be rolled into a fight.
Cruiser and gunboat turrets can still ruin everything.
Transport turrets. No more, no less.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Mercarryn - 05-28-2014
(05-28-2014, 12:32 PM)Lythrilux Wrote:(05-28-2014, 12:18 PM)Snak3 Wrote: Solution to make capital ships less exploitable:
"Aquilon" Zoner Carrier - Cruiser Turrets, BS Shield.
"Nephilim" Zoner Mobile Colony Ship - Cruiser Turrets, BS Shield.
"Corvo" Zoner Deep Space Explorer - Gunboat Turrets, Cruiser Shield
Zoner "Fearless" Q-ship - Cruiser Turrets, Cruiser Shield.
Here. No longer are they heavy capital ships that can be rolled into a fight.
Cruiser and gunboat turrets can still ruin everything.
Transport turrets. No more, no less.
Hm, some time ago, I had set up an excel sheet that summed up my ideas about how zoner caps should be changed, with Jinx`s suggested new models in mind. It was mostly about stats and infocards. I had given Kazinsal the excel-sheet so he could forward it to the rest of the devs.
Unfortunately, for some reason or another it did not reach the responsible devs. I have been told by one of the devs about this.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Thyrzul - 05-28-2014
(05-28-2014, 11:32 AM)Trogdor Wrote: Scumbag, Lyth, Thyrzul. You guys seem to want to put the Zoners in a big box of "Nope". Why? What good will come of turning the Zoners into a generic pile of mush?
I do not want to put them in a box of "Nope", but you have to face the fact that all the three official factions have their own ID now, basically having used the Zoner ID as a generic basis to develop from. And as Tel pointed out, they barely contribute to the overall Zoner development lately.
My concept just aims to drive that further, making being Zoner just a step in becoming a bigger independent entity, like the current official factions are, a phase in which like-minded folks gather but are not numerous enough to declare independence yet, a phase in one's life as Jinx wrote. Once they gather big enough, they'll go independent, and will have to conduct their own diplomacy, will follow their own goals, they will cease to be mere Zoners, just as WPeregrine said too.
My concept would justify having more agressive, neo-ZA-like warmongering groups, given they either sooner or later drop the Zoner way and acquire their own ID, change their behavior or cease to exist. It would justify OSI drifting away the original anti-House anti-corporate Zoner way, becoming a corporations themselves, or could justify anything, as long as once the faction concept becomes more solid, it gets it's own ID. It would justify all those different interpretations we have about what Zoners are and what they can evolve into, removing the need to argue about it with eachother.
With this there would be no need to nerf the caps, only restrict to successor factions, there would be no need to ruin GranCan with bullshit infocards and ice age if a Canarian Republic emerges (with own ID of course), a good amount of unnecessary changes could be prevented if we start looking at the Zoner ID as what it actually is, a basis for further concepts. A generic ID.
My concept just aims to drive that further, making being Zoner just a step in becoming a bigger independent entity, like the current official factions are, a phase in which like-minded folks gather but are not numerous enough to declare independence yet, a phase in one's life as Jinx wrote. Once they gather big enough, they'll go independent, and will have to conduct their own diplomacy, will follow their own goals, they will cease to be mere Zoners, just as WPeregrine said too.
My concept would justify having more agressive, neo-ZA-like warmongering groups, given they either sooner or later drop the Zoner way and acquire their own ID, change their behavior or cease to exist. It would justify OSI drifting away the original anti-House anti-corporate Zoner way, becoming a corporations themselves, or could justify anything, as long as once the faction concept becomes more solid, it gets it's own ID. It would justify all those different interpretations we have about what Zoners are and what they can evolve into, removing the need to argue about it with eachother.
With this there would be no need to nerf the caps, only restrict to successor factions, there would be no need to ruin GranCan with bullshit infocards and ice age if a Canarian Republic emerges (with own ID of course), a good amount of unnecessary changes could be prevented if we start looking at the Zoner ID as what it actually is, a basis for further concepts. A generic ID.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Zen_Mechanics - 05-28-2014
(05-28-2014, 01:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:(05-28-2014, 11:32 AM)Trogdor Wrote: Scumbag, Lyth, Thyrzul. You guys seem to want to put the Zoners in a big box of "Nope". Why? What good will come of turning the Zoners into a generic pile of mush?
I do not want to put them in a box of "Nope", but you have to face the fact that all the three official factions have their own ID now, basically having used the Zoner ID as a generic basis to develop from. And as Tel pointed out, they barely contribute to the overall Zoner development lately.
My concept just aims to drive that further, making being Zoner just a step in becoming a bigger independent entity, like the current official factions are, a phase in which like-minded folks gather but are not numerous enough to declare independence yet, a phase in one's life as Jinx wrote. Once they gather big enough, they'll go independent, and will have to conduct their own diplomacy, will follow their own goals, they will cease to be mere Zoners, just as WPeregrine said too.
My concept would justify having more agressive, neo-ZA-like warmongering groups, given they either sooner or later drop the Zoner way and acquire their own ID, change their behavior or cease to exist. It would justify OSI drifting away the original anti-House anti-corporate Zoner way, becoming a corporations themselves, or could justify anything, as long as once the faction concept becomes more solid, it gets it's own ID. It would justify all those different interpretations we have about what Zoners are and what they can evolve into, removing the need to argue about it with eachother.
With this there would be no need to nerf the caps, only restrict to successor factions, there would be no need to ruin GranCan with ***** infocards and ice age if a Canarian Republic emerges (with own ID of course), a good amount of unnecessary changes could be prevented if we start looking at the Zoner ID as what it actually is, a basis for further concepts. A generic ID.
I can't believe' but im saying it anyway, I agree completely
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Scumbag - 05-28-2014
So do I, Thyrzul managed to make sense out of a pile of whatever this constant bickering is.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Mercarryn - 05-28-2014
Hear, hear!
I agree with what Thyrzul wrote. The only issue that concerns me is, that through a generic Zoner ID like he describes too many different player factions emerge while at the same time vanilla house corporate factions might become neglected.
How could this be solved then?
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Sabru - 05-28-2014
(05-28-2014, 02:50 PM)Mercarryn Wrote: Hear, hear!
I agree with what Thyrzul wrote. The only issue that concerns me is, that through a generic Zoner ID like he describes too many different player factions emerge while at the same time vanilla house corporate factions might become neglected.
How could this be solved then?
* Sabru nods in agreement.
mercarryn has a good point. how would the issue of balance and numbers be solved?
apart from that, Thyr's proposal is quite sound.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - Scumbag - 05-28-2014
Zoners would still not be allowed to trade in the houses. If too many arise, they will compete over the same resources.
RE: The Truth about Zoners - SMGSterlin - 05-28-2014
@Thryzul's idea;
So your suggestion is essentially turning the Zoners into not much more than Freelancers. If that's the case, then why even keep Zoners as a thing? Just change all of their stuff to Freelancer and be done with it. This is even easier to do now, since Zoners had (or will have) their caps removed, removing any conflict with the FL ID not allowing caps.
You don't need a Zoner ID as the bases to develop a faction and get your own ID. Just because 3 player factions right now took that path, doesn't mean it's the only path available. Take The Reavers or Mandalorian Mercenaries for example, they were old Freelancer ID'd factions back in .85, but then they got their own ID's, bases, and diplomacy.
Zoners just really don't have a purpose in this mod anymore, even the player factions that made Zoners successful that now have their own ID's and systems, shy away from calling themselves Zoners. Various groups over the years have devolved the title of "Zoner" into something negative, that immediately brands you as a lolwut or bad player.