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+--- Thread: Espionage (/showthread.php?tid=126075)
RE: Espionage - Binski - 02-13-2015
(02-13-2015, 08:57 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote:Quote:Maybe its the house that FR5's that should be blamed? Or the admins/devs for adding cloaks in the first place? Cloaks are inrp, and cloaking ships are not obligated to RP or communicate with anyone, especially enemies or potential enemies. Ever consider this is a clear cut case of guys got caught doing something inrp by a well invested and equipped agent, and are forced to deal with the consequences. Solution? Accept responsibility for your inrp actions? HECK NO just blame the cloakers for using their cloaking devices in any way. Using them to attack, thats bad. Using them to escape, that's bad too, oh and using them for even inrp silent observation (espionage), well that gets in my way too, so something must be done! /sarcasm. Cloaks are not so cheap a success to attain, and neither is using one. Everyone can make mistakes, even cloakers.
Piece of advice:
1. Watch a good spy thriller.
2. Realize what is cool about the spying business and where the fun in such a genre is.
3. Compare with the cloaky Disco spy reality.
4. ???
Spy games are tense, dangerous, risky.
Cloaky spying is risk-free, dirt-cheap, and has zero percentage to fail.
The only investments are:
> time
> some minor meta-skills to read the player list for tagged targets.
The only result:
> easy win for one side.
> "deal with it" for the other side.
Much fun. No likes, sorry.
Oh come on Jack, not all spying is 'james bond' spying or bourne identity bs. When it comes to space, and scifi, you wanna look at the Trek, Star Wars, Stargate for spying and espionage tactics involving cloaking ships. In real life, you can't introduce yourself by your real name when being a intel operative and expect to live long afterwards, James bond is totally different espionage. In fact what he does is usually not espionage, true espionage is when you have a mole passing secret info to your enemies without knowing who it is. That is also a perfectly viable option, especially to those who can't afford to sink cash into a cloak. Besides I"m fairly sure if Bond could have had a cloak to make his job easier, he'd have used one. Undoubtedly its naive to think our own countries' navies aren't using whatever stealth technology they can to get the upper edge on their adversaries, since in the real world they play for keeps, not RP.
Yes, deal with it. It takes more than just time and a chat list to do that right. Even so, that's all any of us get. This is a video game, its not meant for only ex soldiers to get ahead, or that any average joe doesn't disearve to figure out how the play the game and do it. Why deal? Cloaks exist, they can be used. It has been this way for years. I've used my cloak in this fashion for 16 months and counting. Besides its not like the IMG doens't use the chat list to avoid people like me. I could tell stories about watching IMG convoys on the list sit in 23 while i'm in kyushu, and they don't move until after I jump out. I'm not an idiot, and all you primarily lawful and non cloakers are not always angels either (I have screens, for all the good they might do, but I'm not bitter enough to file or thread over it).
RE: Espionage - Garrett Jax - 02-13-2015
What would you do, Unforgiven, if you were running a quasilawful faction and non tagged players were cloaking and recording your smuggling activities in order to report it to the lawfuls? As I see it, you have three choices. One, you stop smuggling contraband. Two, you only smuggle contraband when you know there is nobody in the system, although someone could appear just moments before you dock on a base to sell. Three, you don't log on at all. None of those options are viable or healthy for the activity of the faction. Every single ship in system is a potential cloaked spy that could cost your faction 500 million credits or more and there is nothing you can do to avoid it other than not logging or not smuggling. Is that what we want?
RE: Espionage - Zayne Carrick - 02-13-2015
I don't really get it.
If you're hauling contraband you're supposed to get caught or not?
I certainly believe, that if the faction in question would stop hauling contraband, then after a month another faction in question, seeing only lawful commodities hauled by first faction, would stop wasting their time on launching cloacked spy ships.
Also, I don't really see the difference. Why it's easier to screen smuggler with cloaked ship?
Smuggler is dropping and destroying his contraband as soon, as he sees anyone on radar?
RE: Espionage - Tigger - 02-13-2015
(02-13-2015, 10:06 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: What would you do, Unforgiven, if you were running a quasilawful faction and non tagged players were cloaking and recording your smuggling activities in order to report it to the lawfuls? As I see it, you have three choices. One, you stop smuggling contraband. Two, you only smuggle contraband when you know there is nobody in the system, although someone could appear just moments before you dock on a base to sell. Three, you don't log on at all. None of those options are viable or healthy for the activity of the faction. Every single ship in system is a potential cloaked spy that could cost your faction 500 million credits or more and there is nothing you can do to avoid it other than not logging or not smuggling. Is that what we want?
While not directed towards me I'd like to borrow the quote here Jax and respond to it. I've he experience of being on both sides of the issue and adm still undecided whether to recommend changes or to suggest leaving things as they are. In some respects changes are already implemented due to changes in how cloaks function and the time that ships can remain cloaked.
* In 4.86 when POB's and Cloaks were new, the BPA purchased a large cloak and placed it on its liner along with docking modules for snubs. We could stay cloaked for 30-40 minutes and used it for both intel gathering of GRN battle placement prior to engagements in Leeds, as well as for following suppliers of illegal bases. In those cases once the illegal base location was determined the liner would remain cloaked and snubs would launch from the the docking modules to interact with the base suppliers. We had our interactin and RP as well as pinpointed the location of illegal bases. In doing so we saw a decrease of illegal bases in Bretonia move from an initial 10-15 in the first months to 1 every other month. I'll give the caveat that as the newness of POBs waned so did the desire to build and maintain them, so I know it's not just the cloaked activity responsible for that.
* Likewise in the same time period I had a Bret liner with cloak and FL ID and hired out to law enforcement, militaries and other groups for the same purpose, to locate and identify illegal base suppliers. My ship was FL ID'd, not tagged, and in those cases my task was only to identify the supply smugglers and pinpoint the illegal base locations and report back to my employers. There was no interaction with the base people themselves, only the pictures or video taken and interaction with the employers.
In that regard, the availability and use of cloaks actually created more role play opportunity for the cloaked freelancer hiring themselves out to others for espionage/surveillance work.
* As a trader carrying legal cargo I've been pirated by cloaking pirate ships, which though irritating from the trading standpoint, was far more "fun" than the usual disabled lane and "2milRdienau" stuff of legendary yawns. In that manner, cloaks again made for different types of RP encounters, and more often than not led to more role play during pirate encounters than the usual demand for 2 million credits - at least from my experience.
* I've been a cloaked pirate and used the cloak to follow a target ship and then decloak at an opportune moment. Normally as soon as a trader detects red on the scanner they run for safe haven so this helped assure an RP encounter. More often than not I pirate for cargo, not credits so had to balance cloak fuel and empty cargo space to take on the pirated cargo. This was far more fun than sitting on a lane waiting to pew the lane gate structure and doing a pirate encounter there. It was more like hunting via stalking than hunting in a deer stand or blind.
* I've been caught by a cloaked vessel while smuggling on an indy ship and forced to pay hush money. Similar to a pirate encounter but by a non-pirate it led to some interesting (if irritating) role play.
Moving forward now to the present time, I have no cloaks personally. I'm led to understand that the fuels for them are different and a cloaked liner can't stay cloaked for 45+ minutes any longer. I'm led to understand that cloaks make sounds wihen within 3 to 5 k of a target so that a prudent and cautious pilot can listen for said sound and act accordingly.
Quite frankly, with the low server population and far less presence of law enforcement in game for a long period of time has led some smugglers to become complacent. For instance, docking with cardi onto Manhattan used to be an achievement to unlock. For a good while one could actually run the lanes with it and dock on 'hattan without seeing a single soul in system. The new mod version was released and we're seeing more activity. That's a good thing. The smugglers need to adapt to that increased activity and renew the behaviors learned from when the server was constantly full. That's for whether there may be cloaked ships out there gawkign or not.
I smuggle for fun and RP value, not for profit. Even in .87 from Alpha there were other legal cargoes that could be taken from there to other locations, sold for marginal profit and then other items like He3 or Cobalt or other ores picked up for trade. I will agree that indy smugglers using whatever ID have it easier than quasi-lawful factions as a whole for that singular indy ship bears the brunt of repercussions while a single ship caught with a faction tag causes major headache for the entire faction.
As for a solution to that I have nothing to offer, but don't see a necessity to alter the usage of cloaked ships for anything that falls under the topic of espionage or surveillance.
- jeni
RE: Espionage - nOmnomnOm - 02-14-2015
(02-13-2015, 10:06 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: What would you do, Unforgiven, if you were running a quasilawful faction and non tagged players were cloaking and recording your smuggling activities in order to report it to the lawfuls? As I see it, you have three choices. One, you stop smuggling contraband. Two, you only smuggle contraband when you know there is nobody in the system, although someone could appear just moments before you dock on a base to sell. Three, you don't log on at all. None of those options are viable or healthy for the activity of the faction. Every single ship in system is a potential cloaked spy that could cost your faction 500 million credits or more and there is nothing you can do to avoid it other than not logging or not smuggling. Is that what we want?
It was always like this though until that quasi lawful faction got hit.
Also this brings up another issue. Commodity spying on PoBs. Most points here directly relate to the other topic.
Another issue was that that quasi lawful faction was REALLY not careful at all. In a number of ways .
Also I will add that one of the ppl that are hear COMPLAINING about cloaks PMed me before to ask I can help them do the same.
Problem?
RE: Espionage - Blodwyn O'Driscoll - 02-14-2015
(02-13-2015, 10:06 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: What would you do, Unforgiven, if you were running a quasilawful faction and non tagged players were cloaking and recording your smuggling activities in order to report it to the lawfuls? As I see it, you have three choices. One, you stop smuggling contraband. Two, you only smuggle contraband when you know there is nobody in the system, although someone could appear just moments before you dock on a base to sell. Three, you don't log on at all. None of those options are viable or healthy for the activity of the faction. Every single ship in system is a potential cloaked spy that could cost your faction 500 million credits or more and there is nothing you can do to avoid it other than not logging or not smuggling. Is that what we want?
There's no nothing you can do to avoid it other than not logging or not smuggling , really ?
I think we can figure out many ways to carry on smuggling :
a/ i think that a cloaked ship cannot record your smuggling activities if your ship is itself cloaked.
b/ i understood that the maximum cloaking time is 16mn.if you suspect that a cloaking ship is following you to get evidence of your smuggling activity, then make sure your trip last longer than 16mn, you will notice if you were followed.
c/ if someone plans to get evidence of your smuggling activity, he must get in scanner range to get a look at what you're hauling, right ?
What if he cannot get in range of your ship because your ship is cruising faster ?
Smuggle in frieghters, only lf can get faster than you.And i suppose their cloaking time is far less than 16mn.
and i just figured out thoses while reading this post, i'm sure there are plenty of other way.Especially thoses involving the sound that make a cloaked ship.
RE: Espionage - MÃmir - 02-14-2015
I am still a little surprised about this discussion. Cloaks were put in the mod with the one purpose of making ships go invisible. Personally, I think it's real annoying. People cloak out of fights on a daily basis (I've lost several million credits in lost bounties to guys cloaking out, poor me), but this is what cloaks do. They are made for dirty tactics, and nothing else. They are also (mostly) countered by fighting dirty, i.e. gank so hard that the cloaker will die before he can cloak or spam so many missiles that the cloaker screams "abuse". It's like some people are only realizing that cloaks promote "dirty tricks" now, even though it was said right when cloaks were introduced? Why are people surprised?
Rather than try to find patches for this one specific situation, we should realize that this is what cloaks are made for. People use cloaks to find POB's. They use them to scout on the enemy. To get out of fights when losing. They use them to get into positions where they have the upper hand PVP-wise when uncloaking. Or to avoid interaction when smuggling. All uses are "dirty". What happens if we make a special case out of this one, but next time it's some indie group without a direct pipeline to the powers that be that get targeted for cloak games, like it has happened soooo many times before?
Just remove cloaks altogether, and take jumpdrives along with them. Or make it so that you can't jump or be cloaked when within 10K of other players. The idea that we should govern their use ourselves doesn't work - 90 percent of the players in this community show poor form when and if they can get away with it. In a social/multiplayer game like this, it boggles the mind why two very powerful tools to avoid all interaction were introduced as "end-game" material, it's so incredibly counter-productive.
That being said, if cloaks are to be in the game, I think the use in this particular case was exemplary. This is how they are used - to do stuff you can't do without a cloak. I am far more annoyed by those types that throw themselves into every fight like true PVP-whores, and then cloak and run after having wasted 10-15 minutes of their opponents time - sometimes to come back later with full supplies. That wrecks the core concept of PVP and force you to play in large groups or fly some huge slow ship type with battlerazors, so you can take a dump all over cloakers. It's not that much fun really.
RE: Espionage - Kosa - 02-14-2015
(02-13-2015, 10:06 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: What would you do, Unforgiven, if you were running a quasilawful faction and non tagged players were cloaking and recording your smuggling activities in order to report it to the lawfuls? As I see it, you have three choices. One, you stop smuggling contraband. Two, you only smuggle contraband when you know there is nobody in the system, although someone could appear just moments before you dock on a base to sell. Three, you don't log on at all. None of those options are viable or healthy for the activity of the faction. Every single ship in system is a potential cloaked spy that could cost your faction 500 million credits or more and there is nothing you can do to avoid it other than not logging or not smuggling. Is that what we want?Option 4: The smuggler uses a cloak too. He doesn't have to cloak all the way only in the critical moments (before docking, entering systems...). He also doesn't have to carry full load of batteries. 200-300 will do.
I think cloaking devices are perfectly fine as they are now. They have their own set of drawbacks (lack of shield, can be CD'd to disrupt/follow, loss of cargo space, loss of countermeasure) and now being watchful is rewarded because cloaks have sound in a range too.
I love cloaks and I use them regularly. I don't use it to avoid interaction. I also RP regularly. I like the drawbacks too as they are reasonable. But there is no need for more.
There is no need to further complicate and overregulate a working system.
RE: Espionage - NoMe - 02-14-2015
Who said that i'm a spy?
my *couverture* bordel it's cold here!
if you want, i know 27 espions
here a list *no match found*
RE: Espionage - Croft - 02-14-2015
(02-14-2015, 08:44 AM)Kosa Wrote: I love cloaks and I use them regularly. I don't use it to avoid interaction. I also RP regularly. I like the drawbacks too as they are reasonable. But there is no need for more.
Isn't that a contradiction? The entire purpose of the cloak is to hide you from sight, to avoid detection and thereby interaction.
This discussion isn't going to achieve anything until someone start nailing down exactly what we want cloaks to be used for and what we don't want them used for, something that should have been done before the EVE patch came into being.