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+---- Thread: To hell with Armor Upgrades! (/showthread.php?tid=14428)
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Nightwind - 12-15-2008
Well this way you'll have to decide...
Lots of armor but higher repair cost and the risk of loosing equipment plus shaking.
Or having a shield and beeing a lot more vulnerable if it's down.
This would finally add a downside to them...
Thruster slot also sounds reasonable, but this would only harm the fighters, while the caps weren't influenced at all.
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Virus - 12-15-2008
' Wrote:Well this way you'll have to decide...
Lots of armor but higher repair cost and the risk of loosing equipment plus shaking.
Or having a shield and beeing a lot more vulnerable if it's down.
This would finally add a downside to them...
Not even close. Forget repair cost. You'll DIE every fight. Fly around without a shield one day. You will get killed by NPCs, players, everything. You fly without a shield, and I don't care if your god is helping you, you will die to my guns if I have a shield. Even worse if you switch AU for a thruster...
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Nightwind - 12-15-2008
Well...ok
Then nevermind this idea.
But the armor upgrades still need an overhaul IMO
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Virus - 12-15-2008
' Wrote:Well...ok
Then nevermind this idea.
But the armor upgrades still need an overhaul IMO
As I said. Wait for the next mod, see what happens. If it is unsatisfactory, then we can discuss. There will most likely be numerous public betas released.
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - mjolnir - 12-15-2008
There are no big changes coming this way for new version, somehow I feel that there are enough changes already and changing too many things at once won't really tell you much about what works good/bad.
Idea is to see what the changes that are coming will do.
There are quite some:
1. Vanilla vulnerability removed => explosives got a bit upped
2. most of the "unhittable" fighters have been slowed
3. basically all lvl 8 and 9 guns have been upped some 20% in damage
and last
4. The new overall balance will make it quite necessary to use different classes of ships in huge fights, not the current VHF (+few bombers) swarm >> all.
(btw if you remember pure fighter vs fighter battles those also tend to get dominated by the side that employs some good LFs in support )
These are imo enough changes for one step to try and check results.
Long-term wise I'd favor lowering bats/bots number on fighters/bombers (by some 20-50%) while keeping same armor.
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - SevereTrinity - 12-15-2008
Can I also add.... part of 'skill' is not flying in a straight line in a joust vs a bomber, you don't wanna get hit by mini razors, supernovas etc? Don't take any risks shieldless, fly defensively, don't make yourself an easy target. Everything has a counter, for instance, missiles, counter with a CD, bomber, don't fly right into the trap, razor, don't joust.
All you need to do is to adjust your style a tiny bit....
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - McNeo - 12-15-2008
If opposing pilots know all the counters, then fights last for a very long time.
For instance, I've had a fight last upwards of two hours, and it ended in a draw because the participants were too tired to keep fighting. My lefthand ring finger felt like it had a hot iron clamped to it, and I had to adjust grips three times in the last five minutes to keep it from cramping.
Now, if I had lots of free time, then it wouldn't be too much of a problem. These marathon fights are pretty awesome in their own way, but they are too common. Most people can't set aside 2 hours for a single engagement, and gameplay should try to reflect that. Equally, engagements shouldn't be 5 minutes between pro's. I think a 30 minute engagement duel is reasonable over the 60 that it is now (I speak from experience) and a 60 minute group match is reasonable over the 120+ that it can last now. Im not saying that a 120 minute fight should not happen, but that it should be pretty rare, rather than pretty common.
That said, the overhaul has most likely been completed and its too late to change things for 4.85 . Who knows, maybe all the changes in 4.85 will mean that this issue becomes void? Im particularly looking forward to being able to fly my vanilla fighters again without being surrounded by nukes.
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Coin - 12-15-2008
' Wrote:"They" will, or "you" will complain and post about it a lot.
/signed
I came from a vanilla server to disco, and the AU/one-shot weapons/new ships refreshed a tired old game for me. What does put me off is:
1. ooc
2. 'nerf this plox' threads
The learning curve from SP > vanilla was pretty steep, but within 6 months I was competent. Not uberpwnzall, but competent. When I came to disco, I was faced with a MUCH steeper learning curve, but for me, that's part of the fun of the game. I know that disco is an RP server, but, lets face it, Freelancer IS designed around a PvP mechanic. In the end, PvP settles RP disputes (yes, I know its not always true, but that's what the sanction threads are for). The KNF want Tau31, and the BAF refuse? pew-pew-pew-boom.
I too have been in fights against eagles that have lasted for HOURS, with bots and bats completely exhausted, defensive flying on both sides, and no real result until a bunch of GB's showed up. Then it got completely one-sided, and I agree, I was also thinking 'Thank goodness that's over, my fingers are killing me'. But it never occured to me that the AU should be nerfed just because I was lower down on the learning curve than I would like. I went out and changed the set up, experimented with new ships, and started to take out nommie battleships in a VHF.
I don't want to come across as trolling, or unnecessarily hostile, but i think the armour upgrades are fine. The only change I would suggest is that the space that they take up in the cargo hold is commensurate with the multiplier, so level 1 = 1/8th of the space of level 8, for both caps and fighter upgrades.
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Grumblesaur - 12-15-2008
' Wrote:I'm leaning towards getting rid of Armor Upgrades, sort of. Though I haven't read all of this thread, I read a good bit.
Now, I'll explain my point. People say fighters and bombers take too long to kill, yes? Bombers take too long to kill, yes? Well, easy solution is to remove the Armor Upgrades, but that drops their hulls to only about 40% (I think) of their maximum armor. I believe that maybe armor upgrades should be removed, and all armors be set to 175% their current value. For fighters and bombers, at least.
Capital ships should keep their armor upgrades sacrificing cargo for Armor Values.
In the end, this would require little balancing, since the point is to make all fighters more potent compared to the bomber's one-hit-kill weapons and allow us FIGHTER PILOTS something to do. As it is, with the SN/MR/NT, the fighter pilot is a dying breed... I feel like I'm the only one left who flies a fighter anymore.
Edit;
All this talk about longer fights requiring "skill". Yes, they do require skill over luck. Its called mastering the few useful weapons in the game, the missile, the torpedo, the mini-razor, or the Supernova. Either you master these weapons, or you're doomed to fight enemies who have decided to master them. I'll admit, even I have fallen into mounting a Mini-Razor and missiles on my fighters, because without them I cannot deal enough damage to matter.
Personally, I find the Nova torpedo worthless; you can't use it without effectively killing yourself. The fighters could use a buff, yes. Perhaps higher base armor. Fighter fights have always been faster, due to less uberpwn weapons like the SN. When I duel people on my Taiidan in Connecticut, I have had half hour fights. The main idea behind bomber/bomber fights is to kill their shield, then fire away.
As for the price increase, it seems somewhat reasonable. 26mil isn't too bad.
Missiles are something I only use on fighters. There aren't enough gun slots on bombers to use them effectively. [Bomber loadout: Deb/Colada/Tizona x2 + hullbuster/standard gun x 2 + MR/Inferno + SN/Nova Torp + CM + Nuke mine]
Whoever mentioned the thruster slot idea and whoever mentioned the shield slot idea:
HORRIBLE IDEAS. Fighter w/o thruster = dead. Fighter w/o shield = dead.
How about the mine dropper hardpoint on fighters, and a torpedo hardpoint on bombers?
' Wrote:Can I also add.... part of 'skill' is not flying in a straight line in a joust vs a bomber, you don't wanna get hit by mini razors, supernovas etc? Don't take any risks shieldless, fly defensively, don't make yourself an easy target. Everything has a counter, for instance, missiles, counter with a CD, bomber, don't fly right into the trap, razor, don't joust.
All you need to do is to adjust your style a tiny bit....
This problem is easily solved by strafing from side to side and dropping mines like a madman.
To hell with Armor Upgrades! - Navycross28 - 12-15-2008
' Wrote:its a RP server, use you're words too inflict the damage, Not you're guns.
Very well said friend. In the case of KNF, a few times of saying "No" to them and they start cursing worse than a prison inmate. Heck, if anyone dares get a military craft around KNF, BAF, or RAF they instantly go from simi-polite to *%$#@! (and yes I have screenshots to prove it).
But back to the armor upgrades: it's a necessary evil. If your using the same craft that the npcs are using, yet your fighting 10 to 1 odds, then the armor helps level the odds. It would be nice to have other upgrades to buy for your ship...