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+--- Thread: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? (/showthread.php?tid=169104)
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Loken - 03-27-2019
(03-27-2019, 02:06 AM)Riehl Wrote: There was a time that people here can physically remember when people turned up for events for the enjoyment of playing them, and not to get anything. That should still be what we do. Things happening, positive or negative to the faction's goals, should be viewed as fun bonuses. Equally we should detach our InRp goals from our enjoyment of the game. What matters is having more opportunities to make fun stories.
It's not about getting anything.
In the past the story hardly developed, it was almost entirely static and people understood that nothing was really going to change from the status quo no matter what they did and just had a good time playing their characters.
This eventually got stale, and now we get regular story updates that change the state of the universe. This is great, but because it's all predetermined and even the official events only have an illusion of choice when it comes to the possible outcomes. It leaves people feeling like their actions are futile because the devs are just going to stomp all over the current faction(s) of choice despite player efforts to be a part of the evolving story and leave their mark on it.
Despite what Durandal may claim the outcome of this whole ordeal very clearly disregards anything the opposition force actually achieved based on only "but muh population numbers".
Sometimes, it's okay to have plot holes if it makes for a more satisfying experience.
Edit: I'd like to add that as of the time of posting this message and throughout this entire chain of events I have had nothing to do with IMG|, [ALG], [RHA] or any of the other factions involved. Although, I was present at some of the battles on indie ships (on both sides). I have no personal stake in this, I just feel like the result does not fairly represent the events that transpired and is a real kick in the teeth to everyone involved.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Wesker - 03-27-2019
(03-27-2019, 01:56 AM)Durandal Wrote: I actually don't remember this incident or more accurately I don't remember what level of involvement the development team had. I seem to recall there being more about rules related stuff going on there than anything else. If you have logs or anything I'd like to see them, but I'll backread through the regional chat and see what's what. Bonus points if someone else such as @Geoffacake or others in the Rheinland Regional chat could handle it for me.
This was mentioned back in the skype chat before the dev discussion completely moved over to discord, it was last fall before we executed the plan. Which ended with the drama of Tanith repeatedly claiming I was powergaming. You and the development team told me to tell the Union to break off from all of southern Rheinland or else we'd sieze Krefeild by force.
Quote:Which we canonized, to the point where Bretonia needed to employ some very messy unconventional warfare to take it.
I don't see how this makes the situation any better at all, you held back on explaining to the community anything about the canonization of jumpdrives nevermind a lone CR dread that would suicide into Aland. For years everyone was told that jumpdrives could not be canon for multiple reasons, and yet out of the blue it happens at what one could argue is the worst time to canonize it. You pissed off everyone, its a slap in the face to the roleplay effort made, or more accurately, an excuse to make Bretonia seize the thing with minimum effort.
Quote:Again, an example of us factoring in player roleplay. When I told you striking the Gwent was a good idea, it was at least a week, I think two, prior to the Norfolk's move.
Quote:No, the Norfolk's bomber wings cost you the integrity and mobility of your only cap asset. Have you actually read the Kassel's infocard?
Quote:Again, you were dealing with detachments from the Norfolk's fleet as well.
Yes I did, and my point still very much stands. Logically speaking, the Kassel wouldn't be moving alone, Battleships are supposed to represent fleets apparently. Now, while I'm sure there would've been damage done, and I'm certain escorts are not a guaranteed counter to every bomber wing, the extent to which the ship was thrown in turmoil is a meme. I sincerely doubt the thing would've moved in without some ounce of protection. To the point of immobilization is ridiculous.
This is looking at it from a defensive pov, as mentioned earlier, I also find it hilarious that there was no counter offensive made by any forces with the Kassel against the Norfolk as well. I wouldn't expect the thing to die or be immobilized like the Kassel, but some damage to signify there was at least a fight would've made a lot more sense. Right now the infocards just paint out that the Kassel was a defensless brick that got wiped and was only good for shooting immobile battleships.
To be fair, this does reflect gameplay quite well. The ship is piss for actual cap combat, and is only good for sieging bases - but from a lore perspective its just terrible.
Quote:Well... yeah, because they can. Bretonia, for all the troubles it is enduring, is still a nation of 14 billion people, or at least that's the number I recall hearing from Uns. Without the involvement of the Hessians, it would have taken an insignificant fraction of Bretonia's ships and manpower to break Aland. I think @Unseelie really ought make some sort of official statement about this, but it's the same as saying the United States would be unable to perform a military police action on their own soil during World War II. The IMG is large as far as trans-sirian groups go, but it doesn't hold a candle to the strength of a House, even a severely wounded one. There are, of course, many many ways to fight against an opponent larger than yourself, and they did a fairly good job of it up until the conclusion of the situation.
Underestimating the resolve of IMG and then in sync with the Hessians who have spent a lifetime fending off this sort of thing only now finding themselves convienetly weak in comparison to the mighty relic that is the Norfolk and her fleet that represents the great power of the great house of Bretonia.
Please, the Outcasts are a House as well now, there's been no move into Tau-37 to sneeze on the IMG. Gallia hasn't been able to sneeze on Cali base sitting not 20k from it in tau-23. The Altenburg wasn't able to sneeze on Bautzen out in the open in Dresden. It was a house fleet and Rheinland is certainly larger than Bretonia if I recall right. Unless Rheinland got downplayed again.
Apparently Bretonia's funding, economy, morale, training discipline, and luck are in spades. They've been able to accomplish in days what other houses couldn't dream of accomplishing in years. Knocking out planets and repelling all defensive efforts, smashing enemy capital hardware with no effort, then jumping their allies on suicide missions to win them the day. God save the queen.
There are billions of other examples just like the situation at Aland that have been stonewalled for whatever reason - not for Bretonia though. Maybe if the Kassel survives by some miracle, Breisen would make a good target. We're a fleet strong of course, with the cover of asteroids and a Nebula there couldn't be any logical reason why we couldn't sneeze on those corporate pigs. They're ill trained with no means of defending themselves after all.
Quote:To be blunt, the Corsairs now have an extremely target rich environment with many windows of opportunity. They can strike at Cambridge from Cadiz or strike at Tangier, Stirling, or Gran Canaria from 47. The fact that the Fes is in 47 does not necessarily mean the Corsairs will opt to hit Tangier, though it is the safest move for them which extends their forces the least.
Ok, turning on Hessian leader mode, but anyone could make the case. Attacking Tangier is a joke, the Hessians did not "fight" for Tangier, and I imagine if the Corsairs hadn't left the planet we would have had a miserable time taking it no matter how many of massdriver's blocks were on site. The Planet is a hadean area wasteland with military outlets holding the largest chunk of our (RHA) military forces, more so then wolfsburg and Leipzig. But whatever, I'm a broken record at this point.
Quote:Bretonia deciding the direction the story goes in is not powergaming. Bretonia is not player driven, it is an environment on which players are able to have an impact and we reserve the right to actually make decisions ourselves.
Fixed that for you.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Grumblesaur - 03-27-2019
(03-27-2019, 01:56 AM)Durandal Wrote:(03-27-2019, 12:09 AM)Wesker Wrote: Mix that with this garbage powergamed, last minute canonized, piss poor outcome for the defenders in all corners and I'm out of gas.
Developers deciding the direction the story goes in is not powergaming. Discovery is not player driven, it is an environment on which players are able to have an impact and we reserve the right to actually make decisions ourselves.
Developers deciding the direction of the story is not powergaming, yes. That statement itself is correct. But that's not the point that people are debating. The issue here is that there are developers who might or might not (and it's uncertain because story development is such a closely guarded secret) be advancing their own or their faction's position in the story, lore, and current machinations of the server. That looks like powergaming, and I suspect the development team would be reluctant to turn over any of their correspondences or documentation to dispel this notion on the grounds that doing so would spoil the story.
This is going to continue to look like powergaming to people, particularly because the developers are frequently also players. One of the ways to alleviate this problem is to elucidate more of the story team's decisions, perhaps in the form of a blog here on the forums. Another one of those ways is to ask developers with a high command stake in an official faction (which, we should note, is one of the mechanisms by which players can affect the game environment) to step down from that leadership position to avoid the entire conflict of interest in the first place. There might be other ways as well, but these are the ones so far suggested here.
Purely in this uncertainty of what goes on behind the scenes do we see a contradiction regarding "Discovery is not player driven" -- the fact that devs are currently permitted to influence the story through both the mechanism of being a dev and being in the leadership of an official faction means that Discovery is player driven, but this power is not distributed or justified to the average player. Anyone can participate in the creation and maintenance of an official faction, but a select few get to be a dev. Double-dipping on game influence looks unjustifiably unfair to a lot of people.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Wesker - 03-27-2019
(03-27-2019, 02:06 AM)Riehl Wrote: There was a time that people here can physically remember when people turned up for events for the enjoyment of playing them, and not to get anything. That should still be what we do. Things happening, positive or negative to the faction's goals, should be viewed as fun bonuses. Equally we should detach our InRp goals from our enjoyment of the game. What matters is having more opportunities to make fun stories.
Yea I remember that time as well, I think we had a better story team then or something. They weren't entirely composed of a liberty/bretonia bias.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - JonasHudson - 03-27-2019
(03-26-2019, 11:29 PM)Markam Wrote: Not everything can be an event. And not everything can be player driven.
If it is, then we are opening a massive can of worms. And I for one would like the retconn proposed here to start around version 4.84 when we were still fighting KNF in Tau31.
No? Didn't think so. The devs are giving an unprecedented level of influence to players right now, and let's be frank here, people are abusing it, and are acting as if it's their birthright.
The Gallia war is equally on rails to the Aland/GC developments, but you know what, I'm not going to be making a thread asking for a retcon when the changes don't suit me.
We should try it anyways and put the issue to bed. If it really is disastrous, we can call it off.
The Red Hessians won't take over the server. Again, under a system, caps could be place. Stations could be classified as 'essential' and be off limits to attack. Not to mention if we make the ability to use your 20 jorms in a story changing move earnable, it limits the rate of change, instead of unleashing it. There are ways around oorp imbalance.
When people say not everything should have a corresponding event, I say why not? If areas are stagnant of activity like the Kusari-Rheiland war, why not have events for territory gains? Set a limit, but if something is at risk, those who care or more so enjoy flying with a purpose will flock to an imporantant battle. People flocked to Omega-3 because it seemed something was genuinely at risk and could be fought for. What was wrong with that?
Some see it as ludicrous but I like the idea of factions having the goal to build up their power and do things like sieze stations or planets. Others knowing this will be tried build their own power to counter it. That's how wars could be here. Its always going to be best to create a situation where something can be gained/lost (territory, a station in most cases). When something of greater value is at risk, it may start out with one side being outmanned or outgunned, but that free flowing situation can also be a good motivator to draw in players with an offer of working towards the sandbox goal. That's basically what we need, sandbox events! Sandbox events! Sandbox events! . Battle events to determine the fates of stations/planet. Then people can choose the side they wish to support (and some cases some people will change per battle) and work at it until that event is up. Simple things like setting HP bars for NPC stations, and supply under fire /battle supply events are basically events that can run themselves, and don't require active management in order to make happen. All we might have to do is change the server restart to mid day on a weekend day like Saturdays and Sundays and have sieges last for up to 24hrs (if it can't be taken out before then). Aland and GC would have been perfect opportunities for those types of event sieges.
Its a waste time making arbitrary changes in places that are lacking in interest, or in places where players are already ready to take action themselves. Player driven changes keep the focus where the population wants it. It just needs to be structured. If under such a system nothing happens in the Rheinland-Kusari war, then no reason to waste time working it. Put the effort where the focus is. As plots wrap up, the spotlight moves around. Otherwise, OF's would always have the option to keep at their fight if they have the people and desire to keep it going.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Yazov - 03-27-2019
(03-26-2019, 11:26 PM)Wesker Wrote: Gallia isn't here yet.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Dark.Star - 03-27-2019
yos, wesker will probably ping the rha echat over 1000 times again to log bombers and all that
but ye, a aland takeover event would be nice to have
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Lythrilux - 03-27-2019
(03-27-2019, 02:06 AM)Riehl Wrote: There was a time that people here can physically remember when people turned up for events for the enjoyment of playing them, and not to get anything. That should still be what we do. Things happening, positive or negative to the faction's goals, should be viewed as fun bonuses. Equally we should detach our InRp goals from our enjoyment of the game. What matters is having more opportunities to make fun stories.
Forced story isn't fun.
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Thyrzul - 03-27-2019
(03-27-2019, 10:00 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: Forced story isn't fun.
What else did we ever have?
RE: Poll: Should we have a redo Player Event at Aland? - Lythrilux - 03-27-2019
At least the illusion that our choices mattered but the bubbling undercurrent of people wanting something more concrete. Or if not that, organic rolpelay was not affected by forced story stuff and interventions. Now more than ever, there has been a massive disconnect between what the Developers want and what the community wants.