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+--- Thread: Economy in 5.2+ (/showthread.php?tid=205804)
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - St.Denis - 11-25-2024
(11-25-2024, 12:56 PM)Antonio Wrote:(11-23-2024, 05:41 PM)St.Denis Wrote: Not everyone finds the old system of mining boring. Same as not everyone finds trading boring.
As for working as a Team (new system), there are people who mine in Teams under the old system. Our Bases are open for people to fill them if they so want to, we regularly fill them, as a Team, and the refined materials are always available for people to haul, if they prefer to do that.
Out of curiosity, what exactly makes the old mining fun for you personally, that the new mining lacks?
It is not a matter of that I find the old way more fun than the new way (because in fact I have never tried the new one), it is that I am quite happy with the old system.
I don't mine for the credits as I have more credits than possibly 95% of the Server Population. So the argument that the new way is slower but makes you more credits, when refined (800 per cycle vs 600) doesn't bother me. If I was worried about the credits I would work out how much time it would take to mine the 500 Units of Ore and process it to get 600 units vs the 800, but I have no intention of doing so. Not everyone sits and works out how many credits they can make per second per commodity. I never use FLCompanion or Darkstat (or whatever they are called), I see what commodity is cheap and where I can sell it to make a profit. I generally look at making round trips and even transport Food/Oxygen/Water to join up two places. I hardly ever transport commodities that are manufactured by POBs and when I do it is because the manufacturing processes for the making of items requires the supply of HRCs.
That the new system 'needs' 3 different types (supposedly from reading the Tutorial on it) weapons vs using 1 weapon, they both involve 'right clicking' to achieve the end result.
What I don't understand is the reasoning behind the apparent turning of every ship in to a combat capable ship. I see no need for a mining ship to have the capability of mounting BC weapons (my Hegemon has a mining array and that is as far as I will go with it). My personal view is I am happy with the Rock Badger (as I do most of my mining in Gallia) remaining a 2350 hold ship (ore or otherwise) and using a mining array (it does have a couple of Transport Weapons) to mine the ore.
I have stayed away from acquiring the use of the 'newer' transport/mining ships that have 'super' combat capabilities with 'big' holds, fast speeds etc. as I see their 'need' is just slowly, but surely, becoming a power creep and not necessary to playing and enjoying the Game.
As I said in my original Post "Different strokes for different folks". In some ways it is just a 'throw over' from RL, there are those that like sporty, powerful cars that 'boost' their ego and then there are those people that get practical cars that get them from A to B.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Vlad - 11-25-2024
Well it's 'nice' the big miners get powerful weapons like BC turrets but the actual capital ships can't have more energy for using such weapons they were supose to use.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Vlad - 11-25-2024
Well it's 'nice' the big miners get powerful weapons like BC turrets but the actual capital ships can't have more energy for using such weapons they were designed to use.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - TheSauron - 11-25-2024
(11-25-2024, 04:07 PM)St.Denis Wrote: What I don't understand is the reasoning behind the apparent turning of every ship in to a combat capable ship. I see no need for a mining ship to have the capability of mounting BC weapons (my Hegemon has a mining array and that is as far as I will go with it). My personal view is I am happy with the Rock Badger (as I do most of my mining in Gallia) remaining a 2350 hold ship (ore or otherwise) and using a mining array (it does have a couple of Transport Weapons) to mine the ore.
Out of sheer curiosity, cause I have never been able to understand this mindset - If you are not going to use the improved combat capabilities of utility ships, why does it matter to you whether they're there or not? You see no need for them because you play your industrial gameplay peacefully, which is fair enough. But why should your pacifism be forced on everyone else? Why should a ship be limited in its capabilities and opportunities just because you don't want to make use of them?
I find the resistance against up-armed utility ships strange. It makes no difference to you, but opens up possibilities for other people. It's a net positive with no downside.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - St.Denis - 11-25-2024
(11-25-2024, 04:36 PM)TheSauron Wrote:(11-25-2024, 04:07 PM)St.Denis Wrote: What I don't understand is the reasoning behind the apparent turning of every ship in to a combat capable ship. I see no need for a mining ship to have the capability of mounting BC weapons (my Hegemon has a mining array and that is as far as I will go with it). My personal view is I am happy with the Rock Badger (as I do most of my mining in Gallia) remaining a 2350 hold ship (ore or otherwise) and using a mining array (it does have a couple of Transport Weapons) to mine the ore.
Out of sheer curiosity, cause I have never been able to understand this mindset - If you are not going to use the improved combat capabilities of utility ships, why does it matter to you whether they're there or not? You see no need for them because you play your industrial gameplay peacefully, which is fair enough. But why should your pacifism be forced on everyone else? Why should a ship be limited in its capabilities and opportunities just because you don't want to make use of them?
I find the resistance against up-armed utility ships strange. It makes no difference to you, but opens up possibilities for other people. It's a net positive with no downside.
I am not sure if you misunderstood what I wrote or I didn't explain it well enough.
With using What I don't understand, I see no need, My personal view, I have stayed away from acquiring the use of the 'newer' transport/mining ships that have 'super' combat capabilities with 'big' holds, fast speeds etc. as I see their 'need' is just slowly, but surely, becoming a power creep and not necessary to playing and enjoying the Game, that I was I was giving my opinion on what I feel due to being asked a direct question.
I even went on to say, which I did in my original Post, "Different strokes for different folks". This can also be translated to "Each to their own". I am, unlike a few people around here, happy to have people disagree with my opinion. I am not happy with PvP and don't find trading 'boring', whereas other people are the opposite.
My point is that not everyone think and enjoy the same things. There are a few here that to seem to think that, because they like the new things, everyone must think the same as they do and must be shouted down or even ridiculed if their opinion differs.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Lord Caedus - 11-25-2024
This is going to take us quite a bit away from the lengthy discussion we've had here on mining towards something else instead. That being the stupidly high cost of manufacturing cloaks. The required inputs on cloaks are weighted far too much towards Xeno Relics, and the amounts used by the different recipes is firstly, far too high and secondly does not scale in a logical manner. I'm going to take a look at the base costs because it's the simplest way to do it.
Let's look at the light cloak first.
consumed = commodity_industrial, 7500
consumed = commodity_robotic_hardware, 7500
consumed = commodity_super_alloys, 5000
consumed = commodity_superconductors, 5000
consumed = commodity_nanocapacitors, 5000
consumed_dynamic_alt = 2500, commodity_multiplexors, commodity_bioprocessors
consumed_dynamic_alt = 5000, commodity_gold, commodity_pirate_gold
consumed = commodity_copper, 5000
consumed = commodity_platinum, 5000
consumed = commodity_xeno_relics, 5000
consumed = commodity_azurite_gas, 1500
That's a lot of Xeno Relics required to make a single piece of equipment mounted to a fighter. Mining that many XR is prohibitively time consuming because of the length of time required to transport them from their mining zone back to a transport ship capable of carrying that many. But it gets more strange when you look at the "larger" cloaking devices.
Now we take a look at the medium cloak.
consumed = commodity_industrial, 12000
consumed = commodity_robotic_hardware, 10000
consumed = commodity_super_alloys, 7500
consumed = commodity_superconductors, 7500
consumed = commodity_nanocapacitors, 7500
consumed_dynamic_alt = 5000, commodity_multiplexors, commodity_bioprocessors
consumed_dynamic_alt = 7500, commodity_gold, commodity_pirate_gold
consumed = commodity_copper, 7500
consumed = commodity_platinum, 7500
consumed = commodity_xeno_relics, 3500
consumed = commodity_azurite_gas, 3000
This recipe requires more of every other input excluding XR, which has inexplicably gone down and is less needed now.
consumed = commodity_industrial, 17500
consumed = commodity_robotic_hardware, 12500
consumed = commodity_super_alloys, 10000
consumed = commodity_superconductors, 10000
consumed = commodity_nanocapacitors, 10000
consumed_dynamic_alt = 7500, commodity_multiplexors, commodity_bioprocessors
consumed_dynamic_alt = 10000, commodity_gold, commodity_pirate_gold
consumed = commodity_copper, 10000
consumed = commodity_platinum, 10000
consumed = commodity_xeno_relics, 5000
consumed = commodity_azurite_gas, 5000
The large cloak continues this trend of the increase of all other inputs going up, but now XR are back up to the same required input as the light cloak from earlier.
consumed = commodity_industrial, 17500
consumed = commodity_robotic_hardware, 12500
consumed = commodity_super_alloys, 10000
consumed = commodity_superconductors, 10000
consumed = commodity_nanocapacitors, 10000
consumed_dynamic_alt = 7500, commodity_multiplexors, commodity_bioprocessors
consumed_dynamic_alt = 10000, commodity_gold, commodity_pirate_gold
consumed = commodity_copper, 10000
consumed = commodity_platinum, 10000
consumed = commodity_xeno_relics, 6500
consumed = commodity_azurite_gas, 7000
Finally we have the transport cloak, which in fact only increases in cost of XR and Azurite gas over the previous large cloak.
Ah, but Caedus, I can already hear you saying. Cloaks are so expensive in Xeno Relics because we don't want them to be readily available and used by every single person flying around. That's a perfectly reasonable concern to have, but I personally don't think we'd be seeing a large amount of people simply switching over to flying ships with cloaks. Not to mention that there are several factions that can currently simply buy cloaks on their NPC stations, and these factions haven't to my knowledge, been seen to be abusing the use of these cloaking devices. If this isn't the case though, I'd welcome feedback showing as such.
Then we take a look at the jump drive recipes. I'm going to cut out the middle one here, but if you look at the numbers you'll see that it shares the trend of having increased cost with increased capacity.
The smallest jump drive
consumed = commodity_basic_alloys, 10000
consumed = commodity_industrial, 7500
consumed = commodity_robotic_hardware, 7500
consumed = commodity_super_alloys, 7500
consumed_dynamic_alt = 7500, commodity_multiplexors, commodity_bioprocessors
consumed = commodity_energy_field_equip, 2500
consumed = commodity_platinum, 5000
consumed = commodity_aluminium, 5000
consumed = commodity_silver, 5000
consumed = commodity_azurite_gas, 3500
consumed = commodity_optronics, 2500
consumed = commodity_xeno_relics, 1500
And the largest
consumed = commodity_basic_alloys, 25000
consumed = commodity_industrial, 15000
consumed = commodity_robotic_hardware, 15000
consumed = commodity_super_alloys, 10000
consumed_dynamic_alt = 10000, commodity_multiplexors, commodity_bioprocessors
consumed = commodity_energy_field_equip, 7500
consumed = commodity_optronics, 7500
consumed = commodity_platinum, 10000
consumed = commodity_aluminium, 10000
consumed = commodity_silver, 10000
consumed = commodity_azurite_gas, 10000
consumed = commodity_xeno_relics, 5000
Notice that the XR cost on the largest jump drive is the same as for a fighter cloak. Jump drives inherently provide a lot of utility to the ship they're fitted to and can even benefit multiple ships, while at the same time cloaks at best provide utility to a single ship.
Now you're probably asking, what exactly do we change to get rid of these issues. Firstly, I'd suggest the lowering of XR inputs for the smaller cloaking devices, to make them more forth the investment of building. Secondly, I'd suggest that we take a look at the recipes themselves, and see about replacing some of the inputs with others to spread them out across the various houses more, Gallia for example produces none of the input HRCs for the manufacture of cloaks. They wouldn't necessarily need to be replacements for existing ones, they could instead get the option of using one HRC or another. Using Niobium in place of Aluminum or Molybdenum in place of Silver for example. I'd also suggest that instead of having extremely high required inputs, we instead have the "larger" recipes see additional inputs be required that the "smaller" ones do not. High-Temp Alloy, Cryocubes, Tungsten, Optical Chips, Titanium, and Beryllium (I'm sure there are others here too) could all be used to add additional needs for the recipe without increasing the base amount of goods needed to make the equipment. Doing these things would make producing cloaks more viable, increase player activity across regions, and (hopefully) encourage more cross faction play so that people can acquire these goods more easily.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - The_Godslayer - 11-25-2024
My personal comment on economy is that I find powertrading to be the most soulless boredom in the game, and PvE is not all that far behind. With the added bonus of being an almost always solo player due to timezones, I actually have few enjoyable ways to earn money, especially compared to people who enjoy SpaceTruck Simulator, or who have friends to grind codenames out of PvE zones to sell.
If I could somehow make powertrader type money off of instigating 1v1s at the lowest hours of the server, I'd probably be up there with the 700mill club. I think I got up to maybe 20 mill across all accounts recently due to hauling Counterfeit to Mu, Kewmers to Dublin, and Gold back to Ontario, and it reached a point where hauling the next run was an exercise of willpower.
I don't think there's a non-abusable way to make economy viable for me and people like me, honestly, but if you want a challenge, you can take a crack at it.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Enko - 11-25-2024
(11-25-2024, 05:53 PM)The_Godslayer Wrote: My personal comment on economy is that I find powertrading to be the most soulless boredom in the game, and PvE is not all that far behind. With the added bonus of being an almost always solo player due to timezones, I actually have few enjoyable ways to earn money, especially compared to people who enjoy SpaceTruck Simulator, or who have friends to grind codenames out of PvE zones to sell.
If I could somehow make powertrader type money off of instigating 1v1s at the lowest hours of the server, I'd probably be up there with the 700mill club. I think I got up to maybe 20 mill across all accounts recently due to hauling Counterfeit to Mu, Kewmers to Dublin, and Gold back to Ontario, and it reached a point where hauling the next run was an exercise of willpower.
I don't think there's a non-abusable way to make economy viable for me and people like me, honestly, but if you want a challenge, you can take a crack at it.
To be honest, if you literally only want to PvP to make money the only thing that will ever really work is bounty hunting contracts, but for credits coming from the server I just don't see it happening. Joining active factions that make money is probably the only way to get good consistent enjoyment out of being with people doing those activities.
Improving PvE is there certainly, and trying to find new engaging ways with other economy sides but I think fundamentally those that only ever want to PvP in Discovery will be limited to bounty handouts and faction shared/charity.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Karpfen - 12-12-2024
I personally think it's good to have a big variety of commodities in trading, I find it fun to make new transports for new commodities. Maybe some find it boring, but theres no need for everyone to do it. I mostly find PVP pretty boring myself. Traders gonna trade, PVPers gonna pew.
RE: Economy in 5.2+ - Catto - 12-17-2024
While, admittedly, Disco is only a pseudorp server, and as such number go up is a viable personal goal for people, I think the economy sucks because it caters to very specific and limited playstyles. As it currently stands all trading is power trading, and power trading is more often smuggling than not. It's more viable with large transports, which as a shipclass shouldn't exist outside of escorted or NPC vessels. The game design doesn't make engaging with traders through neither piracy, nor any other interaction meaningful, because they are power trading as fast as possible.
I believe an automated trade bounty system should be implemented, whereby bulk commodities of one or more types in specific quotas yield massive profit, instead of using credits per unit. The reason I believe so, is because Freelancer fundamentally is a game that operated on doing missions instead of freighter trade as its primary revenue source. Trading commodities in vanilla was only ever designed for what we call bridge commodities, and was much more niche. Because the original developer intent when building the game was for a player to be a bigger part of Sirius than just a space trucker, I think building a trade system designed around themes in specific areas, the lore needs of a specific planet or station, and most of all, on wasting less time. A trader mission system would be building more flavor for both any trader and everybody else involved, and can solve a lot of problems.
These problems would namely be how to make more credits when you need them, how a trader can be useful for roleplaying with others and what a trader's role is in pvp. While inRP traders have a lot of freedom in what to play, the game doesn't reflect that in a fun way. If trading made more credits faster with a lot more flavor, it'd be a bigger banger, and enable/engage a lot more people.