(05-22-2013, 03:48 PM)Knjaz Wrote:

(05-22-2013, 03:15 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: What you fail to realize is that zoners have more "resources" than any other faction ( houses are exceptions ) to build battleships and cruisers, <...>

Did you just put zoner's R&D, industrial capability and available human and material resources above that of a Corsairs, Outcasts, Council, Colonials, House Corporations, IMG, Red Hessians, BHG/BHG Core and Order, and all of that in mind with zoner society being "zoner", i.e. divided into relatively small cells, that are not quite well connected to each other, if at all?

Uhh... I'm not sure how should I comment on that.

(05-22-2013, 03:15 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: What you fail to realize...

(05-22-2013, 03:58 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:

(05-22-2013, 03:15 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: What you fail to realize...

And what you fail to realize is that Zoners aren't the UN. They are not a united faction under the same banner, frankly a FP10 dweller could give no crap about what happens around the Omicrons and vice versa. That is the military weakness of the Zoners, that they are not united. And that makes your idea of a "Zoner Alliance" also redundant. It does not and will never represent Zoners as a whole.

@Nooblet:
It's been said before that if you wish to discuss other factions and why they should or shouldn't have their caps, you are free to do so in an other thread as if you would do it here, that would derail this one pretty much. Believe me you are not the only one with this, I too think that some other factions neither should have their caps, but this is just not the place for it.

(05-22-2013, 03:15 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: What you fail to realize is that zoners have more "resources" than any other faction ( houses are exceptions ) to build battleships and cruisers, but if thats your problem with the zoners, the capships.. u might want to consider a different mod.
I see more logic with zoners having capships than hessians do, because unlike hessians, they dont live in the wild with the nomads, so they don't need that much op as zoners do, freedom of action, good shiplines etc. Hessians are balanced when zoners are not, but zoners aren't perfect, you sacrifice a lot with every faction you lose but nothing is impossible if you have good rp, and if you have good rp, zoners should be your first choice.
The Order + pheonix are never tired of humiliating us by claiming that we are a mere fake, and are not true zoners, because we are in-favour of violence, which is far from the truth, but even if it was the truth, every society must have a more radical movemvent in it, and quite frankly the pheonix should not be official anymore due to their latest treatment to others, especialy us. I will not offend n00blet but they are ex-omicroners which is why they are the same. just because you don't like it does not mean its invalid.


Edit 2 : One of the problems with zoners is the complaints that we get, and these guys rush in to express them as to prove my point.

(05-22-2013, 04:51 PM)Karst Wrote: In my opinion, Zoner capital ships, or at the very least Nephs and Aqs should be SRP only.
Zoners should have only a small handful of ships like that, used for very specific purposes - not as a defensive battleship fleet.

There is no way Zoners could be more powerful than Corsairs or Outcasts; those factions have entire planets under their control and thus a population that's literally thousands of times greater. They're also extremely focused on raiding and warfare and thus have an incentive to build ever more powerful ships in the greatest numbers possible.

The same applies to a lesser degree to smaller unlawful factions.

The thing is, Zoners just don't have the economic basis (in lore) that other factions do.
They make money trading in the Edge Worlds and selling stuff like food produced at their Freeports.

You cannot compare this to the economic basis a mining faction like the IMG or GMG has, or the Hessians which mine goddamn DIAMONDS and raid transports, or Corsairs and Outcasts which act as the sole suppliers of very valuable contraband goods.

Honestly, Zoners were accurately represented in vanilla - flying Dromedaries and Eagles.
Obviously since most factions got so many more toys, it's fair enough that Zoners got some too.

Zoner Whales, that's nice and good. Some Corvos for deep space exploration, yes. A very small amount of capital ships that should be used in their intended roles: long range exploration and colonization.

Why is there a ship called a "Zoner Destroyer"? To destroy what?
Just doesn't make sense.

Quote:They aren't supposed to be a warring faction, who want to shoot people.

Quote:Nephilim is not a coloniziation ship but infact a warship, you can ask the jinkx for the details, but you shouldn't forget that zoners are not just mere explorers they are decendants of millitary personal as well.

Quote:Why is there a ship called a "Zoner Destroyer"? To destroy what?

(05-22-2013, 04:41 PM)SMGSterlin Wrote:

(05-22-2013, 03:15 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: What you fail to realize is that zoners have more "resources" than any other faction ( houses are exceptions ) to build battleships and cruisers, but if thats your problem with the zoners, the capships.. u might want to consider a different mod.
I see more logic with zoners having capships than hessians do, because unlike hessians, they dont live in the wild with the nomads, so they don't need that much op as zoners do, freedom of action, good shiplines etc. Hessians are balanced when zoners are not, but zoners aren't perfect, you sacrifice a lot with every faction you lose but nothing is impossible if you have good rp, and if you have good rp, zoners should be your first choice.
The Order + pheonix are never tired of humiliating us by claiming that we are a mere fake, and are not true zoners, because we are in-favour of violence, which is far from the truth, but even if it was the truth, every society must have a more radical movemvent in it, and quite frankly the pheonix should not be official anymore due to their latest treatment to others, especialy us. I will not offend n00blet but they are ex-omicroners which is why they are the same. just because you don't like it does not mean its invalid.


Edit 2 : One of the problems with zoners is the complaints that we get, and these guys rush in to express them as to prove my point.

There is so much wrong with this post it makes me rage...


1. Zoners do not have more resources than all the other factions around, like Knjaz mentioned. Zoners are a bunch of independent people living out in the desolation of the edge/border worlds. They in ABSOLUTELY NO FATHOMABLE WAY THAT EVEN MAKES MINOR SENSE could have many resources. Zoners don't help each other out, they help themselves. If someone manages to salvage some materials for a ship, he isn't going to collaborate with the other Zoners to use it to help build capital ship fleets, he's either going to sell it to the highest bidder, or use it to make himself some type of ship. Also, your comment of "if you don't like it, leave this mod" is rather harsh and uncalled for imo. If we went by that philosophy, Disco would be MUUUUCH different.


2. No, it's not more logical for Zoners to have capital ships rather than the Hessians. The Hessians have allies and allies of allies in very industrial places, they can get supplies for capital ships. They also DO live very near Nomads, they're called the Das Wilde. Hessians also have a war with the Corsairs, who have a very large capital ship line, so they would logically build ships to match the power of their enemies the Corsairs.

Zoners don't have any wars going on, they have to put up with The Nomads around the Omicrons, but that's it.

3. You're right, Zoners are very unbalanced, they have WAY too much power, so I agree with you there.

4. Zoners being in favor of violence...From what I'm understanding from your post, is that you're heading a faction of aggressive and hostile Zoners? Correct me if I'm wrong and misread that, which I hope I did.

Yeah that just sounds like complete OORPness to me. Zoners are supposed to be a peaceful group, just trying to live in peace away from the houses. They aren't supposed to be a warring faction, who want to shoot people.

You could even easily say that's against the rules, as a breach of rule 6.9. In my personal opinion, if my assumption is true about you doing this, I would advise you to stop. I'm all for people trying new RP ideas out, and trying to liven up the game a bit, but in this case, it just sounds like rule breaking...

5. Are you seriously saying "Phoenix didn't play nice with us like we wanted them to, they should be punished because of it"? If so, then that's just pathetic. :|

Nothing more to say on that matter.

(05-22-2013, 05:14 PM)Ed- Wrote: Just going to throw my opinion into this matter, so excuse me if it's uncalled, irrational, opinionated, possibly biased, imprecise, because, it's just my opinion.

According to what I've seen here, most people who showed discontent for the Zoner use of capital ships and the reason for it's existence express a desire to have them nerfed or to completely disappear from disco. From what I've read, this argument is mainly based on the lore.

It is true that according to the lore, zoners have few to none capabilities ( according to their possibilities of acquiring the resources, and their very decentralized policy ) to acquire a capital ship line. Though, we should take into calculations that this is also game, and when judging such stuff, we shouldn't be guided exclusively by lore but also game balance and general gameplay.

The Capital Ships are there to balance the gameplay against the enemies of a faction. This also applies to other factions which shouldn't have caps, like the Corsairs, Outcasts, etc etc.

But, a new problem arrives: Zoners don't have enemies in order to take this fact into calculation. This is only partially correct. Nomads can invade and wipe the Zoners out of existence anytime. Any other faction can do so as well and declare war on the zoner individual, group, faction or the entire ID. This however, happens only when a particular zoner group or individual screwed up. And in this case, the justification of Capital Ship gameplay balance for this matter should be void. " You harvest what you sow " comes into mind.

I, personally, would like some form of control or nerf over the capital ships only because most of them are used ooRPly. I have seen to many zoners making open alliances with Order ( When I believe that even if it exists, this alliance should be undercover so it won't provoke unwanted attention), making anti-Core missions, threatening the Core, attacking the Core ( not self-defence ) and doing all sorts of other stuff. I think a good number of individuals here are familiarized with "Nephilim lolwuttery" to know what I am talking about.




On a sidenote, SMGSterlin, let me give you my opinion over this "violence" and "peace loving" so called attitude of Zoners.

I personally view zoners not to be a peace loving hippie group. Indeed, they prefere peace over violence but only because it is a necessity for their survival.

Nothing stops zoners to be violent, but let's put a line however. What I mean with a "violent" zoner, is actually a zoner that could find "entertainment" in the violence of others and possibly use it as a way to advance their own interests and get profit.

For example: Zoners want to expand in Pewie System ( just an example ), but the Corsairs took it before them. Zoners recognized the profit and the possible trade hub this system would have been so they are pretty mad about it. Yet they don't insult or behave bad in front of the Corsairs and instead, maintain a "peaceful" attitude so they won't be wiped out. Instead, they notice that the Outcasts are pretty close to that system yet they didn't notice that the Corsairs expanded into it. The zoners would tell the Outcasts that the Corsairs expanded into Pewie system and also supply/make business with Outcasts which in the end, would possible make the Corsairs to retreat and leave Pewie up for the taking. This doesn't however mean that the OCs cannot backstab as well.

With this example, I want to illustrate that the Zoners are kinda "under the shadow business men". They maintain a peaceful attitude so that they wouldn't get into trouble, but will actually use other factions' wars and hostilities in order to advance their own interests.

I admit you are true by this line:

Quote:They aren't supposed to be a warring faction, who want to shoot people.

But...

...In conclusion, a Zoners' best weapons shouldn't be the nephilim, or violence, but it should be their Sly and deceiving nature. Their weapons should be diplomacy, persuasion and slyness.




Moving on to another idea... Some people brought up the idea that non-zoners generally hate zoners ooRP. The question is why?

I personally think that the reason would be this:

Since zoners have so many RP opportunities and since they are very decentralized, and their weapons are diplomacy, each zoner faction and individual can forge its own enemies and alliances.

Mistakes are always bound to happen, and sometimes, the zoner faction would make an enemy they didn't want to make. Instead of conceding defeat, they would push it even further however. Eventually, it will come down to Forum QQ. Conclusion: Bad Rep for Zoners.

Another reason is the fact that, since Zoner ID is so open, people can have a multitude of opinions about how a zoner should really be. In truth, there is no "real" zoner way of right. If you saw me bringing that up, it was satirical in order to portray that. Why there is no real zoner way of life? Exactly because they are decentralized and spread out. Each zoner faction and individual has the ability to form its own concepts and traditions.

We have TAZ who have a very wonderful religion. We have OSI who are a zoner trade enterprise which supply zoner freeports and conduct other business. We have Phoenix which struggles to survive in the Omicrons, living between the Order - Nomad - Core Triumvirate of Conflicts. We also have the Zoner Alliance who, as far as I know, are formed of ex-military officers, we also have the Commonwealth, which is a zoner association mostly formed of gauls whose goal is the pursuit of its own interests with little to no regard to anyone else except it. And the list does not end here! We also have an administrator for almost each of the Zoner NPC bases, as well as zoner individuals and maybe other zoner factions which I may have forgot ( I left out the inactive/disbanded zoner factions out on purpose though )

To get you back from this derail, I want to evidence that, zoners and also non-zoners can have very different opinions on how a zoner should truly be. If this opinions will coincide or not, it will lead to either good Rep or bad Rep for the zoners. When a zoner faction does what it shouldn't be expected to do like: be extremely hostile with its neighbours and then don't live up to the consequences, it is only naturally that the zoners receive bad rep.

To add a little more difficulty, we live in a world where generalization is a trend.



That was all.

(05-22-2013, 05:14 PM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: That's precisely whatr i've said in my earlier posts, if "you" complain about the capships, you might as well remove other faction's battleships as well.. Every large faction has a capship to balance the books between them. Zoners are nerfed enough.
Still, that's hypocrisy because I haven't seen you complain about other factions having battleships, but when it comes to zoners.. its a coctail party.