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+--- Thread: "New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. (/showthread.php?tid=21052)
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - tazuras - 05-27-2009
Alright, after I have read all of your posts, I now get to make my post of huge longness, I hope you enjoy:
I will get to the council later, I am going to start with some of the other issues that have been raised.
The 500 mill
Keep it but split it. First to be listed as an unofficial and use a tag and get guaranteed representation (although not a guaranteed vote) on any NPC faction council. Perhaps 200 mill than 300 mill? There is no reason that 5 members cannot spend 4 hours each trading to make a faction. If they cant they are obviously not committed enough.
Limiting the number of Official factions per NPC faction
Absolutely not. Disco should not be first come first serve, it is already far too much like this IMHO, new players should not be told they cant accomplish things because others got there first, it is simply unfair and discourages new players from trying to accomplish great things. I don't think we want to set this precedent. In order to do this though the standards for official factions may need to be changed:
Official Faction Standards Update
- If it is something that is 'one faction' in RP then multiple factions would represent different divisions. Each faction must be different enough from all the other factions and serve a unique RP purpose. Otherwise it should not be a new official faction.
- Unofficial factions need to be registered so long before becoming official.
- If there are more factions than is reasonable, the standards should be raised.
Old factions should be periodically reviewed to make sure they continue to meet current standards. If not they get a warning, after which they have X amount of time to get back in shape, otherwise, the lose their official status. If you get 2 warnings within a certain time, you get suspended and temporarily lose some degree of power. You get a third within X time after the suspenion is over you lose official status. Or something like this.
Review of factions should include community opinion. Opinions given must be justified though, hersay will not be tolerated.
Potential New Powers
- A Greater voice in affecting their NPC faction
- A guard system they have full control over.
- Higher ranks can give certain orders to indies. Failure to follow order repeatedly can lead to a KoS order to every player in the NPC faction
- Access to new RP commodities
Alright here are my thoughts on the council. I would like to say that any council will be complicated and create more bureaucracy. They should only be instituted in order to grant more power, otherwise they would be pointless. I would also like to say that it would clearly be an OORP body that would be represented differently in RP based on the individual faction. The I see potential benefits of a council as such:
- Increased power of official factions.
- More indy involvement/inclusion.
- Greater player affect on NPC factions.
- Agreed upon laws of space that more players will follow as they had a say in them.
- Less sanctions (this is not likely, but possible I believe.)
- A faction council would consist of a majority of members from official factions with equal representation of each.
- Indies and unofficial groups would be represented by player nominated, admin appointed players. To become appointed a player would have to make his case on why he should be on the council to the admins and provide at least one written recommendation.
- They would comprise of about 1/3 of the council. If there is only one official faction than they will provide two members while the indies and groups will be represented by one.
- These reps should be those willing and capable of representing as many other indies as possible, they will have to do work in game, on the forums and on chat to accomplish this. This may require non voting indie representatives depending on the size of the indy community.
- They would comprise of about 1/3 of the council. If there is only one official faction than they will provide two members while the indies and groups will be represented by one.
- Each council will have a chair that is member that is elected by them. The chair will facilitate civil, productive discussion and will bear most of the responsibility. The chair will vote last on every issue. The chair will represent the NPC faction on the house council or appoint a rperesentative.
- The house council will be an OORP body who's task is to represent the government of the house. It will be composed of the chair of every faction that operates in that house. Reperesentatives of factions more closely related to government (police, military and secret service) shall have a greater say (perhaps 1.5 votes?). All unlawful factions in the house may have a non-voting member on the house council. If the house council were down any other way either there would be too many members or not everyone would be represented.
All powers must be well defined and thought out. Any decision made by either council may be overruled by the admins. Their powers might include the following:
- They would have the power to affect the NPC faction including every player in it in the following ways:
- Changing NPC faction diplomacy relative to other NPC factions. Major shifts in NPC diplomacy, like the change of a long time enemy, must be submitted as a request to Igiss or an appointed representative or representative body.
- Changing equipment usage, with admin approval.
- Granting exemptions to NPC faction diplomacy to player groups or factions.
- Issuing KoS/expulsion orders to against indies that violate faction RP/rules.
- Issuing KoS/expulsion orders to against player groups, with admin approval.
- Changing NPC faction diplomacy relative to other NPC factions. Major shifts in NPC diplomacy, like the change of a long time enemy, must be submitted as a request to Igiss or an appointed representative or representative body.
- Requesting an official faction review of any faction by the admins, with sufficient evidence that such a review is warranted.
- They may send a representative to the house council.
- Represent the faction in an official capacity both in RP and OORP.
- Setting diplomatic status of the NPC faction to any player faction or group, they can only set diplomacy to NPC factions.
- Issueing KoS orders (other than on betrayers) or attending to minutiae, they represent the leadership of the NPC faction, who would also never deal with minutiae.
- Suppressing the RP or words of official faction representatives in RP. Every official faction leader or appointed representative would have a voice in RP, their RP position should be carefully defined relative to the NPC faction leadership (as represented by the council OORP).
- Affecting indy, group or official faction RP in any way not described above.
Should there be a council that represents each NPC faction?
*shrug*
I dont know. I think it is a very big idea that could change a lot of things here. What they are, I really dont know. If it is tried I suggest it be done on a limited basis at first with perhaps two factions within a house, then the whole house, etc.
Ironically I think that by working so hard on this I have shown just how complicated it will have to be to be fair and will make people think it's a bad idea.
Whether or not any of this is implemented I feel the power of official factions need to be better defined, like in the server rules.
Comment away!
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - Benjamin - 05-27-2009
' Wrote:Perhaps
I think this is one of the better ideas.
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - hack - 05-27-2009
The house Military / house Police are still going to have to represent the NPC faction each. The is just no way you are going to get multiple wings / precincts together and get anything accomplished. Too many chefs.....
Edit. Also. Precincts only cover so much area....
Are you going to tell me Precinct A cant go into Precinct B territory? that is what you are going to end up with.
Plus Most of the Militaries and Police are already official factions that have proven their time and worth, so you want to punish them and tear them apart for someone else's vision?
No
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - farmerman - 05-27-2009
' Wrote:The house Military / house Police are still going to have to represent the NPC faction each. The is just no way you are going to get multiple wings / precincts together and get anything accomplished. Too many chefs.....
Plus Most of the Militaries and Police are already official factions that have proven their time and worth, so you want to punish them and tear them apart for someone else's vision?
No
I still think the best option for this is to ask them to come up with a system to try and integrate the various indie groups into their structure. Invite the leader of the groups into some sort of Admiralty group and work together to figure out a way to work on how rank would be determined - possibly with some kind of equivalence or some sort of system. My thoughts are kind of vague because I don't want to step on their toes, not being involved at all. If anyone wants to assume a particular rank, I'm fine with most things because the greater the rank, the greater the responsibility. Then just let this Admiralty offer official demotions and declare them a traitor if things go chaotically.
Major positions should have overall agreement and, for the really important RP ones, community agreement though.
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - hack - 05-27-2009
' Wrote:I still think the best option for this is to ask them to come up with a system to try and integrate the various indie groups into their structure. Invite the leader of the groups into some sort of Admiralty group and work together to figure out a way to work on how rank would be determined - possibly with some kind of equivalence or some sort of system. My thoughts are kind of vague because I don't want to step on their toes, not being involved at all. If anyone wants to assume a particular rank, I'm fine with most things because the greater the rank, the greater the responsibility. Then just let this Admiralty offer official demotions and declare them a traitor if things go chaotically.
Major positions should have overall agreement and, for the really important RP ones, community agreement though.
Trying to integrate the indies in to the existing Military? Could work. Have them start at a certain rank and work their way up and gain rank and trust ? Definitely.
Personally I think someone that buys a battleship and isn't in the Official faction Navy and tries to pass himself off as an admiral is completely silly. Something like a Destroyer / Cruiser and a Lt Cmdr? Much more realistic, leaves room for advancement. Now, you also have to remember the people in the Official faction that up until this point have been working their butt off to make rank and to be able to command a cap ship. No reason to cut them down.
As for Police factions? Lets face it, Police factions don't have enough players to cover 24/7. They aren't "Glamorous" enough to attract a lot of new applicants. We don't need multiple Precincts when we cant even cover around the clock. In the LPI every time we see an Indie, we look and see if he / she can be recruited.
So, I still stand by my statement, 1 official faction per house Military / Police/ covert op. group.
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - Blodo - 05-27-2009
Guys, councils or no councils it will STILL be up to the established factions cooperativeness to talk to their indies, and no admin enforced rule will help that because this will always be a people problem (and one that is currently present... well... nowhere, might I add). Adding a layer of bureaucracy doesnt help this problem, but is likely to make it worse.
The way I see it, trying to standardise the relations between every house/faction and their indies will only end up with most of the smaller groups (where everyone works together, including the non faction players) being penalised for the actions and aspirations of the other ones. Yes, I see this idea as a problem rather than an answer, mainly because it truly does not need to be applied in any of the areas of space that I currently have characters in some position of power. Just leave things as they are, if people want to make a suggestion for the future of the mod, they can start a thread on the forums and put it under the scrutiny of the community. The result is somewhat same, yet better because there is no useless bureaucracy and less rules and behaviour for admins to enforce. They don't need the additional workload that this idea would need them to deal with.
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - mwerte - 05-27-2009
What about factions that don't claim to be the whole of their NPC faction like the LR (Slypeed's Rogues) or some of the old UoG, QCRF, ect?
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - pbrione - 05-27-2009
The main flaw in Magoo's plan on the previous page (besides its compexity) is the issue of resolving disputes through Civil War - are we honestly saying that if some pirate groups comes up with a proposal that the other pirate groups reject for being stupid, then group A can simply beat the others in PvP and then they will be forced to follow his proposal or be sanctioned?
Why must these councils be official? It is unneccessary and unworkable regulation. OORP councils as a forum for discussion between players of a House, certainly - it is useful and it already exists. But having "voting rights", chairpersons, compulsory representation of certain indies (still not sure how that is to be decided - bear in mind that new players will have no idea whether the person trying to order them around is a powerful "Council" indie or just some random idiot) - there is really no need. Faction leaders of established factions tend to be responsible people - that's how they got their jobs after all - I am sure they can act responsibly and reach consensuses without having to go through voting meetings (which would each take at least 2 days to get anything decided, as people won't all show up at once).
As for the faction creation rules - I'm fairly sure that the current system is fine with regards to how it grants certain factions "monopolies" over their npc group - in fact it doesn't. There is nowhere in the rules saying only one faction per npc faction, what there IS is an encouragement to create factions for npc factions that are currently unrepresented instead of fully represented ones. I'm sure if you could create a proposal for a new Rheinland Military proposal that managed to both differentiate you from and not infringe upon the activities or reduce the RP of the [RM] then it would be given due consideration, I just find it highly unlikely that you would be able to.
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - Merwood - 05-27-2009
Well i know i am definetely a new kid on the block but that is besides the point , Now i know there isn't no easy answer to this problem regarding a new faction process and council and everything else that has been mentioned in this thread so i'm gonna just give my feedback ,
I think the easiest solution is a house council with 6 representavies 2 for all official military factions 2 for all police factions and finally 2 for all independents and these 6 people must be picked for each house by the community .
"New faction creation process and representation" discussion thread. - SigCorps - 05-27-2009
OK so a group of folks want to start a faction.
I think they need to put together an Unofficial faction proposal first, post it in a new subforum, pay 250 mil to get their tag. No 250 mil no tag and no post in the sub forum. The money need to be ready for extraction when they make the post.
The posts should be like the ones we see in the official faction creation using a similar format. This keeps them all looking good and easier for everyone to peruse.
Now lets say they want to go official. They have had to have been about for 4 months, have a minimum amount of members and they need to cough up another 250 mil for the official application process. The total 500 mil goes towards the 1 billion if they decide to purchase a guard system or barge. They get to move their proposal to the Official faction sub forum and they can be further critiqued. Although by this time if they have gotten good feedback while Unofficial, they should be close to being where they need to be. If they get approval they move up into Officialdom and there is a party and cookies.
if they get disapproved, they stay unofficial and with their feedback can continue to polish their faction documents and role play. They will not get back the 250 mil from the attempt to go Official and must re-apply, cough up another 250 mil and try again once they feel they are ready once again.
I think this will keep folks from spamming the official faction requests and make sure they have a polished product to put before the admins and the community. With the 4 month requirement before posting it shows that they are serious about who they are and will have some longevity.
Now faction Councils.
It might be best to break them up by house instead of by each faction
So you could have the liberty lawful faction council
Comprised of LN. LPI, LSF the various liberty trading factions.
Or it could be broken down into the Military house factions council and a house trading faction councils
so LN,LPI, and LSF council
then all the trading factions in liberty
the liberty Unlawful faction council.
Rogues, Xenos, Hackers...ect...ect.
Official factions must be part of their council, but Unofficial factions are not required. Although if you plan to go official being registered with your council may be a really good idea and good role play.
I think all official factions should get a 1 seat and a 3 votes.
Unofficial factions get a 1 seat and a 2 votes.
Indies who want to register and participate get a seat and a 1 vote.
This promotes role play and communication between all interested parties and while can get a bit complicated at times, as it can on the Council of Zoners, it does help.
Folks who do not register with their council get no say on what goes on really. Which would be a shame, but oh well.
Now what the council decides on and uses itself for is really up to then, But I think matters of role play that are going to affect others in their council need to be brought up and discussed. Now if the LN is going to seal the boarders then this would be something to bring up in council, but is they are restructuring their command structure then that can be handled internally.
Factions that span multi-house can for their own councils, like the zoners, junkers, corsairs and outcasts have already done. Similar aligned councils can cross between to exchange ideas and coordinate between them. While all this communication can drag things down a bit, having everyone working together will, ultimately make things run smoother and hopefully there will be less stepping on toes.