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+--- Thread: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys (/showthread.php?tid=102074)
"Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Pavel - 07-18-2013
That issue bothered me since the time of GRN "disbandment" drama over a month ago, I was inspired by short conversation between Treewyrm and Omicron:
(06-14-2013, 12:51 PM)Treewyrm Wrote: Well, it sure can be stressful to play 'bad guys' since plenty members of this community are incapable to shake their in-RP attitude outside the game, I had to deal with that often enough, but 'bad guys' can be played. I mean if even Nomads can be played then why the heck not Gallic Royal Navy?
(...)
(06-14-2013, 01:02 PM)Omicron Wrote: RP'ing the mean and bad is one of the best things in discovery.
fully good and altruistic is just boring and mary sue.
(06-14-2013, 01:04 PM)Treewyrm Wrote:(06-14-2013, 01:02 PM)Omicron Wrote: RP'ing the mean and bad is one of the best things in discovery.Yeah, but it attracts more people, most are so entrenched in that "be a good guy, be a hero" stigma they have a hard time getting out of that and taking up the mantle of evilness. Unfortunately Mary Sue still is a rather popular character base around, oh well, but that's another topic really.
fully good and altruistic is just boring and mary sue.
I think Treewyrm nailed it here; vast majority of community members is incapable of playing bad guys. Seems like people want to be heroes and world saviours only, my experience with playerbase as a Daumann leader confirms it.
Everyone wants to be supergood, even roleplay of some of official factions is totally unorthodox and opposed to what NPC faction's RP background is. Game becomes simply booring when you meet yet another player who tells you in-game he supports various rebel factions, dislikes SynthPaste or blames big corporations for all the evil of Sirius.
Treewyrm's "Mary Sue character stigma" term is more than appropriate to describe current situation, when 80% of players around would make excellent Bundschuh member. Players who often are incapable to differ their character's inRP stance from their personal ooRP approach to the presented issue, let's add.
Fact majority of playerbase plays good guys in a universe full of greedy corporations, bloodthirsty terrorists, ruthless drug dealers, corrupted police and many shady groups makes gameplay unrealistic in my opinion, additionally it discourages those few who are able to and enjoy roleplay of "bad" side of the universe.
What do you think about that issue? What can be done to make "bad guys" more attractive for players, RP-wise? Why many players have problem with playing on the "bad" side?
Discuss.
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Lythrilux - 07-18-2013
I like playing bad guys.
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Kazinsal - 07-18-2013
I missed the "GRN disbandment drama" -- TL;DR it for me please?
I agree there are too many stereotypical "rebel" characters around, but really, we're playing a game where the whole lore is based around stereotypes. Liberty is 'murica, Rheinland really screams "Weimar Republic" to me, Bretonia is like the Victorian era in space, and Kusari would make Hirohito proud. The Xenos are a parody of inbreeding, the Mollys are your standard drunken IRA parody, the Hogosha are the Yakuza, the LWB (I am not typing that out) are... actually, I'm not quite sure what they're supposed to represent.
I dunno. I guess I'm just too used to seeing the same crap over and over again that anything that's not a stereotype or parody, no matter how turd-like it may be, is a nugget of friggin' gold.
(07-18-2013, 11:21 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: I like playing bad guys.
Also I second this. Playing actual bad guys who are in it for something other than be-rebels-and-profit is fun.
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Landers - 07-18-2013
Many player's RP express their personality, I think. For example when I played my Rheinland soldier Joachim Landers, I could not imagine myself as an unlawfull (right, I am/was "only Rheinland", right) and even if I tried, I had problems. I could not feel it.
Since I left that character, I'm more open to other RP (like unlawfull).
People just have to try something else or be more open.
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Lythrilux - 07-18-2013
IMO I don't even think Gallia supports the whole bad guy thing.
I just see them as another house, I disagree when people compare them to the empire.
In order of most baddest bad guys in my opinion:
Nomads
Wilde/Isenjin
BHG Core
Reavers (Seriously, they live by the coin without any real emotional attachment, I find that pretty dark).
...Phantoms? :x
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Kazinsal - 07-18-2013
(07-18-2013, 11:29 AM)Lythrilux Wrote: ...Phantoms? :x
I could write pages on this but I don't think it'd be a good idea.
TL;DR though, phantoms were never really a good idea. $0.02
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Benjamin - 07-18-2013
I try to consciously RP basically all my characters as unlikable, and when I wrote up cryer I tried to make it as true to vanilla as I could - hell of amoral profiteering. if you can't afford medicine, do you really deserve to live? that's the cryer way.
but yeah I think a big issue is people play the faction rather than the character. just have a little depth. you can be a GRN war criminal but you can still like taking your dog for a walk, telling jokes with your friends, trying on new clothes and buying new outfits, etc
try and build a real person, who did a bunch of other stuff before joining faction xyz at 21 or 40 or whatever, think of what makes them a person beyond their IFF, and importantly, try and justify your actions. think how your character would justify pirating people, killing people. it won't be because "im bad", there's always going to be thinking behind it.
but really, you have to be able to separate yourself from your guys first or it will never work. give them flaws you don't have is a good way to ease in to this. play an idiot, a coward or whatever. you need to take pride in how well crafted and whatever you evil guy is, rather than worrying that he's so evil that it scares you irl.
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Syrus - 07-18-2013
Wait, which kind of bad guys are we talking about?
Because the kind of "bad guys" I can think of - pirates and such, OC for example - are played quite a lot.
GRN! Ah, right. I think the problem with the faction lies somewhere other than that they are the "bad (good) guys". People seem to prefer to play vanilla factions, or factions which are closer to vanilla lore. Also they prefer to play on their turf a bit, and go out "hunting" when they feel like they gathered some people.
Other faction that could be seen as the bad guys ... BMM, Daumann and Krüger for the "local rebel and revolutionary groups". The main problem is, that these groups don't make up for the big malus of being hated by those "revolutionaries". I'd have totally played a Krüger miner, had it not been for me loving the IMG even since vanilla, even had a an Eagle with the old Class 8 Vampires back then (they had no Class 9), just because it was my favorite faction. Als, Krüger has gotten a very bad reputation with the old leaders they had. Not to mention the big problem of not being able to go to Kusari without the threat of being slaughtered by everyone in the Sigmas. Except maybe for the OSC. Daumann is a great faction as well, but just like with Krüger, the massive Hessian (+ consorts) presence and the lack of safety in their iRP "main mining fields" makes the faction torturous to play quite often. I know the Hessians aren't as active anymore, but ... who is? Lack of chances against certain forces is quite a big downer for non-combat based factions of the "bad guys".
That ... pops up the question: Who do you mean by "bad guys"? Maybe I'm at a complete loss as to what you mean exactly.
There are a lot of "bad guy"-unlawfuls around. Though those mostly feel like they enjoy behaving like exhaust pipes.
I'd say we lack the average person who just doesn't care about greedy Corps as long as he gets to make money. More egoistical people playing the not-100%-unlawfuls (like OC or Pirate ID'd). Buuuut...that'd require an RP environment where such RP is possible first, where it isn't all "run into pirate, get pirated / not run into pirate, meet no-one / run into someone else, silence".
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Deeceem - 07-18-2013
Hm, would anyone mind to define "good" and "bad" in the disco universe or even in general?
Anyways, the main problem to rp them well/creative is imo:
(07-18-2013, 11:22 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: Playing actual bad guys who are in it for something other than be-rebels-and-profit is fun.
because of:
(07-18-2013, 11:11 AM)Pavel Wrote: ...a universe full of greedy corporations, bloodthirsty terrorists, ruthless drug dealers, corrupted police and many shady groups...
Or in other words it's quite hard to make up good rp reasons for being "bad" other than wanting to make profit and/or to get power, which automatically results in major sterotypes in the behaviour of the character (being greedy, enforcing etc.).
Other than that. I don't know if any of my characters could be considered "bad" due to a lack of definition of the meaning of the word "bad" yet. I only can say I try to play one of them unlikeable and I enjoy it.
RE: "Mary Sue" character stigma - problems with RPing bad guys - Space Eater - 07-18-2013
First: it must be said that the term 'Mary Sue' is (or, was) thrown around a lot on Discovery by [certain people] who obviously didn't understand what a Mary Sue was actually supposed to be; they simply used the term to describe anything that they didn't like, or didn't fit in with (their) view of what is or isn't 'Freelancer' enough.
Second: Most characters are, to some degree or another, Sue-ish.
Third: It's cute that Treewyrm, of all people, would talk about Mary Sues.