+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Discovery General (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=23)
+--- Thread: The division of the server (/showthread.php?tid=10275)
The division of the server - Blodo - 07-11-2008
I had some interesting thoughts about the situation on the server, and how it changed from six months ago to the way it is now. How in the last two months we had this descent that formed a ridiculous bias in most people here, a bias towards two imagined groups that serve nothing more than cataloguing people into one stereotype or the other. In my thoughts about RP and the way it relates to real life, it is a rather obvious fact that we on Discovery seek to create the most believable universe and situations, so as to immerse ourselves in our very creation. Hence, we seek to replicate the patterns that govern our own world to the very letter.
After having a small chat on skype with a few people they have agreed with me that any militarised structure in the real world is based on a principle of respect. In our world we have a division between the commanders and the commanded. The commanded are the foot soldiers that march into battle on a whim of the leading figure. They are the ones who are required to follow orders from those with a higher respect value (who coincidentally retain a higher rank 99% of the time). The commanded can prove themselves worthy of leading their own batch of people into battle by gaining respect among their teammates and ranking officers, thus becoming commanders. This also relates to real life as all military leaders are chosen based on leadership and the presence they command.
Now comparing this with the world of Discovery, it is the same principle of respect that governs the roleplay of high ranking commanders by any player. Official faction leaders are naturally respected, because they have put in a great amount of work into their faction and are all experienced players, recognised pilots ingame and known community figures on the forums by the time their faction is recognised. The so called conflict that has been vastly exaggerated by a very small number of individuals is sustained on the claim that factions wish to completely control the RP of any independents using the so called "bully principle". This principle is indeed in effect, but the question needs to be asked: to whom does it happen? Does it happen based on a rudimentary hate of the untagged player, every single one no matter of the position they roleplay? Or does it happen to players who decide to skip the roleplaying and respect part, and metagame their way straight into a defacto position of command?
To defend these players: most of the time they are doing it in RP, and by principle these people are not in the wrong. But using this same principle, is it not completely in RP for people with the understanding of the RP of the NPC faction, belonging to a group of players roleplaying members of said faction, to depose this self imposed admiral based on lack of respect for his very figure?
To put it in other words, the division is not between "independent" and "faction" players, but between players who cannot handle RP and those who want their RP to be realistic. Leaders need to command authority and respect is realistic RP. Unknown admirals popping out from under the pillock isn't. Those mentioned admirals, when questioned on a basis of evaluating their authority, when failing to instill a sense of respect in the questioning party, usually decide to take their unbridled rage to the forums and call it the "bashing of independents by faction players". This of course the community does not take well to, and the topic descends into tens of pages of wasted space and time.
So could it by any chance be that the community is now essentially split into "factions" and "indies" not due to an actual conflict between those players, but rather due to these few individuals who cannot handle RP in a realistic way? I wonder if anyone else opened their eyes on this situation from a completely outside perspective.
Discuss.
The division of the server - Tenacity - 07-11-2008
I demand you bow down to my authoritah!
I'm fine with factions demanding respect, but when they go around on a crusade against independents they arent acting in a respectful manner.
The biggest problem with factions is that they demand you start from the bottom when you join. It's reasonable to say that you wont be an admiral in the navy the minute you join the LN/NC/SA/whatever the hell they're calling themselves now, but forcing players to spend months upon months in a ****ty fighter is ridiculous.
People come here to have fun. One of the biggest attractions to the discovery mod is that there ARE new ships, and that you CAN fly something bigger than a fighter/freighter. Nobody wants to come to a mod where you're able to fly battleships and spend another three months in a fighter before they get some power-tripping faction leader's approval to upgrade to something that can actually survive in pvp.
The division of the server - Praetyre - 07-11-2008
Amen, seconded and agreed, Yuri. I think the largest problem is the lack of application of logic in these debates and the overly dramatic treatment many people seem to give it, comparing opponents to mass murderers and dictators and decrying factions as the death of the server. And frankly, I sometimes wonder what would happen if their standards were applied to a real-life military. Would they consider the US Army "fascists" because you need their permission to operate their tanks, they have a unified chain of command and they don't allow people to act as one of their personnel without going through proper channels?
The division of the server - Dusty Lens - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:So could it by any chance be that the community is now essentially split into "factions" and "indies" not due to an actual conflict between those players, but rather due to these few individuals who cannot handle RP in a realistic way? I wonder if anyone else opened their eyes on this situation from a completely outside perspective.
I've been mulling the situation over myself, given the dynamic shift of player population that the server has been undergoing in the last few months I'm of a mind that the 'factions' will be well advised to take note of the population dynamics and relax the role that they play.
Taking a step back from being the guardians of certain bits of RP to being role models of a certain type of RP.
For example, lets look at the RM.
When the population was a bit smaller there was a sort of logic to the notion that if you wanted to be part of the Rheinland military, you joined the RM. This heralded from the days before tags and IDs.
Nowadays, the server is much larger and persons may with to sample the delicious flavors of Rheinland law enforcing without becoming a part of a player faction. The faction drums its chest and states that it's their way (RM in your name) or the highway, due to pre-established RP. The other player asks how someone with a Rheinland ship, bearing a Rheinland Military ID performing the duties of a Rheinland Military officer is considered to not be a valid member of the Rheinland community.
Anger then manifests.
Perhaps it's simply my own mindset, but I've found great success following a model of "I'm in a faction, I run a faction and I'm going to have my faction present the best possible example of our vision of how this should get done and maybe those folks will follow along. Damned if I care if they have an XA on their name or not." You answer questions, you guide as best you can, but don't demand that the folks join you or shove off.
There's also a flipside to that, one of respecting what's come before you. But I believe that's something that will come after a body has decided to integrate himself, not before.
Just my humble two cents.
The division of the server - ryoken - 07-11-2008
I agree with most of what you sayBLODO, except 1 point.
"Official faction leaders are naturally respected, because they have put in a great amount of work into their faction and are all experienced players, recognised pilots ingame and known community figures on the forums by the time their faction is recognised."
This is not always true. I have seen player's very new to disco make a new faction. I have seen faction's run by total waste's of space. Yes 75% of the faction's,and ussually the faction's that survive are run by disco vet's, but not all. After all if i wanted to(and i do not) I could take a few hour's out of my day and have a faction up and running in no time.I could also buy a system for said faction as i do have the money scattered across my 12 CHAR's. Making, and running a faction does not make any 1 person better, or more capable of saying how you should play a NPC faction char.
Beside's this, what you said make's a whole lot of sense to me.:)
The division of the server - Stucuk - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:The biggest problem with factions is that they demand you start from the bottom when you join. It's reasonable to say that you wont be an admiral in the navy the minute you join the LN/NC/SA/whatever the hell they're calling themselves now, but forcing players to spend months upon months in a ****ty fighter is ridiculous.
Factions are basicaly Clans. In basicaly every clan in existance u generaly work from the bottom up. In some clans(Talking about my past experience with other games) u can for example have to wait a whole month to be a full member (As in Recruit to Member). You arn't going to get alot of power when you join a clan and why should you? If you wish to fly around in battleships/whatever and don't want to wait until you have earned it then noones stopping you from doing it as an indy. But your not gona get a clan to part with there hard earned cash to fund your Battleship the day you join them, there gona want to know your dedicated to the clan, know RP, etc before they would give you cash for anything larger than a VHF.
The division of the server - Dusty Lens - 07-11-2008
' Wrote:The biggest problem with factions is that they demand you start from the bottom when you join. It's reasonable to say that you wont be an admiral in the navy the minute you join the LN/NC/SA/whatever the hell they're calling themselves now, but forcing players to spend months upon months in a ****ty fighter is ridiculous.
That's just the way the cookie crumbles. You do start at the bottom. Heck, in my faction you start in a Starblazer and man the stick for 8 hours minimum.
Let's take the Bs| for example. They're working to portray The Order to the best of their ability. Their vision of that is that the vast majority of their pilots man ****ty little fighters performing quick hit and run strikes or force recon while the brass ply the heavy hitters through mean space.
You might be able to shiningle your way in with something heavier, but it would be up to you to convince them why that would be so and why you should step into an organization above other people who may have invested far more energy into the group than you have.
In a player faction, it's up to them to decide how the group operates.
The division of the server - Blodo - 07-11-2008
Ryoken: This is why I included the word "official". No faction will ever become official without proving itself that they can act as a rolemodel for roleplay and fair play in the region they inhabit. I understand your point, there are many unofficial factions out there that have no respect to anyone, but they too fit in perfectly into my view considering how - with the lack of respect they enjoy in return - they have no authority over anything, except by sheer force in limited situations. Such factions are quickly forced out of the area they troll in by other factions who do not take liking to their presence. Again it causes much grief and rage, but it can be solved by a simple understanding of the rules of respect and authority. Factions who do realise that are usually elevated to official status at some point, and become members of the community.
The division of the server - ryoken - 07-11-2008
Very well put Blodo.
The division of the server - Tenacity - 07-11-2008
actually people -are- stopping you from doing it as an 'indy'. The factions are.
The basic attitude I see is this -
Faction: "Join us and you have to work for three months and prove yourself to get a battleship"
Player: "But I want to fly a battleship now, I have the money for it, I worked for it, (and in some cases, I have an RP story for it)."
Faction: "If you fly a battleship without joining us we'll kill you on sight for 'stealing it' lulz"
Almost every faction here is on a powertrip. If you dont do things their way, they'll turn your time here into a living hell. They'll make up reasons to destroy you without breaking the server's rules, they'll kill you every time you try to RP, they'll prevent you from docking at any bases you would otherwise have access to due to npc reputations.
Even if the 'indy' is a solid RP-er and has put a lot of effort into developing his character, he's still hounded by the factions because he isnt under their direct control. That's the entire issue between factions and independents - the factions want control, they want to think that they have the ultimate say in everything here. If you dont bow down to them, they find ways to grief you for it.
Yes, there are a lot of 'bad' indies out there, flying around cruisers and battleships and whatnot and using those ships to indiscriminately pwn everything they cross without so much as a hint of RP talent. But look on the other side of it - look at all the independents that are -excellent- roleplayers, and receive the same treatment by factions as the bad ones do.
I firmly believe it's the factions at fault. Their attitude and behavior towards other players is causing this whole 'war' with the independent players. What it all comes down to is basic rights - people should not have to come to this server and give up months of their time here to work towards a ship/rp that they really want. They play to have fun, and factions are preventing that.
Until the factions step down and accept that independents -can- be good roleplayers, nothing is going to change.