+- Discovery Gaming Community (https://discoverygc.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Role-Playing (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Forum: Unofficial Factions and Groups (https://discoverygc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=67)
+--- Thread: Liberty Navy [LN] (/showthread.php?tid=11128)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-23-2015
Yes, you could not accept my point of view then, I find it hard to believe that you should be able to now. I don't see any particular reason to go through the exercise of explaining something to you that you cannot/will not understand. Others tried and failed before, I don't think I'll have any more luck.
But, that is besides the point. My questions and opinions regarding the topic in question still stand. Let's not derail the discussion further.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
I fail to see how a Navy Admiral making a public communication with the intent of denouncing a terrorist organization and their so-called nation, would in any way discredit the [LN] as an official faction. An individual character sharing a minor glimpse of her personal opinion, as part of a larger message calling for the denounciation of some Terrorists, and for them to surrender, is certainly not something that 'discredits' a faction from an OOC perspective, or even really from an inRP perspective.
This whole thing has blown up quite ridiculously, and I've already said AT LEAST a half dozen times by now, that if some organization wanted to try and bring inRP consequences to Rachel Baker over the comment that she made, I welcome it, although since her statement is not indicative of faction diplomacy or trying to alter faction diplomacy, and since her messages were clearly aimed at discrediting/demoralizing/denouncing a terrorist organization in a public manner, she can't really be called treasonous or something like that.
Oh and let's not kid ourselves here, as I mentioned previously this is a science fiction video game, one which is pretty 'light', at that, in most instances. Full of cyborgs, clones, drones, aliens, shadowy 'illuminati'-esque groups and so on...if you think that ANY of the military factions on Disco are trying to be "Realistic", you're sorely mistaken. The most "realistic" thing about most military factions around here is the rank structures.
Anyway whatever, the bottom line is this: My inRP communique was clearly aimed at discrediting/denouncing a terrorist group, and it did exactly that but it so happens that Rachel admitted that (GOD FORBID) she doesn't think her government is perfect, and that she doesn't think corporations having the amount of power that they do is necessarily a good thing; but that the way of The Republic was still better, and worth fighting for, and that she would do so.
Her actions were not indicative of faction diplomacy, they were not geared at CHANGING faction diplomacy, they were not indicative of Navy plans, they were not representative of the collective opinions of the entire [LN], they were not treasonous, and they were not unlawful.
Because of those reasons there, the leadership of the [LN] would not really have a reason to step in and say "Hey Sarah maybe don't do this RP ok?", we don't have a habit of stamping out individual roleplay within the [LN], so long as it doesn't interfere with/alter faction relations and/or diplomacy.
Anyways before I continue this any longer, can I just ask -- Since when have people in official factions been expected to limit their roleplay to cardboard cutout characters with no personality, who only do things that won't piss other people off?
@Tyria.Regalia, I saw that you brought up Bill Clinton, but I really fail to see the relevance. His affair wasn't illegal, and neither was he impeached for it, even though his opposition tried to accomplish that. He fully served out two terms as elected President, and he actually remains regarded by many as one of the best Presidents the United States has ever had, just thought I'd share that little tidbit, for what it's worth.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
Heya, here's a bit of bedtime reading
As I said I was mostly picking this up on a general level, so proportion doesn't really factor in. Also, and I just want to say this again, I don't really care about the individual case as such, I am just interested in what it all means in a wider context. That is, if individual roleplay is encouraged even when it borders the implausible, how do we measure the "quality" of an official faction as a whole? Is the Navy's roleplay the sum of its members individual roleplay, and if so where is the "red thread" that is usually put forth as one of the prime reasons to why official faction members should hold their privileges? Or is individual roleplay completely seperated from the faction's roleplay?I do not question your character's motives or desires, I question if it is plausible that a person with those attributes would ever reach the rank of viceadmiral? Would that kind of "rowdy" behavior not be far better suited for a low ranking officer that is not the face of the entire Navy? There's a discrepancy that, if the roleplay is to be taken somewhat seriously and not be completely ignored, totally undermines the authority of the admiral in question and the navy she represents. To make it a bit more concrete, imagine how it would feel for the families of navy pilots who got killed by Hellfire while protecting those corporations and institutions the very viceadmiral now questions in a personal and open communique with none other than the terrorists themselves? Idk, in real life you might find people within the US military with a nuanced or maybe even lenient view on certain terrorist organisations, but they'd never be able to voice those views publicly in any democracy even - it's 100 percent incompatible with their duty.
I'm all for the fact that this is a fictional space shooter (hell, I've always advocated for fewer words and more pews), but even in Vanilla Freelancer characters follow general rules and structures, like in any other half-decent fiction. When you go too far out of bounds, the story and setting becomes "bad" or just too incredible; but we as players are in this case forced to have an opinion, since it is THE official faction viceadmiral, not just "a" viceadmiral like so many others aboard LNS- ships. Unlike those admirals, my characters are forced to take your character and roleplay seriously, even if I as a player see no difference between that and "light roleplay" adolescent catgirl admirals in battleships. What sets [LN] apart from 5th, 41st etc., if not quality and coherence? Pretty transmission bars and a fancy tag? Is the idea not that the official faction should be the pillar on which the roleplay of other players on the same ID rests?
So on a roleplay level, of course the transmission denounces Liberty institutions - you cannot deny that, even if you didn't really mean it so bad. It's written in the transmission, there's not really much to debate. You even confirmed that you discredited said institutions in your post above. Now logically that either puts your character in a odd position, or it puts your navy in an odd position - and its not up to other factions to react, but solely your own (which is never going to happen since it is super uncomfortable and oorp creates a bad vibe when you "punish" one of your own, I totally get that). I'm curious which it is going to be, or if this is just a clear indication that official faction membership and roleplay means diddly squat and by all means should be totally disregarded, as it is just about that one player's individual fun - like in the case of indies. Which is fair enough, I cannot argue against that even if I wanted to (I also like casual fun); but doesn't that open up a string of questions regarding out of roleplay legitimacy of the official faction institution and thus membership privileges?
If official faction roleplay should be weighed in the exact same fashion as any other roleplay, what justifies the perks? Just curious here.
I also never said anything about cardboard personalities. There's a vast difference between real life Oliver North and real life Petraeus, even though they both held key positions within the military. As servicemen they were similar in their form, but extremely different in content. Military, rank, structure, uniforms, decoration etc. is a lot about form , but within that form there is still a lot of personal variation. A 'mother' or a 'father' entails certain boundaries and rules, but we can all agree that a lot of mothers and fathers are extremely different from one another, even though their roles adhere to the same rules. This case is no different, hence your argument is void.
Someone can be kind and warm within a given form, or someone can be cold and callous and still keep the form, but within any military (fictional or not) there are boundaries and structures (which is how we can identify the very thing we are looking at as 'military' - structure is key to taxonomy of any kind). We need rules for fiction, if there are no rules it becomes surreal, but you can argue that even the surreal operates within its own logics, no matter how much it tries to transgress those. Often the surreal is juxtaposition of the real, and as such they are so closely related to one another that the surreal cannot truly be said to operate outside of those confines, even when that total emancipation is the ultimate desire. There could be no surreal without the rules and boundaries of the real. There has to be some stringence or coherence otherwise fiction is unbelievable and thus completely worthless, unless of course the goal is to use the unbelievable to demonstrate a point in itself, but I find it hard to believe we'll ever find a master writer of that calibre here. If we did, my god did he or she waste their talent.
I also like Bill Clinton.
tl;dr: Should we just not bestow any kind of importance to official faction roleplay/statements and totally disregard it when it goes out of bounds? I don't mind that, just looking for some clarification.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Miaou - 07-24-2015
You seem to be mixing your feelings about official factions and whatever issue you have with Sarah's roleplay. It's really killing whatever message you are trying to give. At this point, it just looks like your digging for some way to make this situation bigger than it is. Sarah answered, LN HC answered. I don't know what else you're really looking for at this point.
If you're opinion on how things should be working are different than how they are, that's like, totally ok man. That's why there's different Liberty Navy groups to begin with. People have different opinions and ways of doing things. S'kay.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
I don't know how much I can stress this point, really, but I am not trying to make a situaion bigger or smaller than it is.
As I said, the situation is totally unimportant to me. Absolutely and totally. I am just interested in the relationship between individual roleplay and faction roleplay when it comes to individual characters of rank within a faction, and what exactly that means for the rest of us - and of course the ramifications that have on the official faction system and the perks it bestows on players. Is the system really fair? I think that's a valid discussion, and even if the particular situation is the starting point for that discussion, I think it goes well beyond it. The situation leads to some questions on a general level, and those are the questions I am trying to ask.
I don't hold anything against the player or the faction, really.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - LunaticOnTheGrass - 07-24-2015
I'd like proof of Admiral Baker's birth within Liberty. Why is she hiding her certificate?
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Jihadjoe - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 01:40 AM)Mímir Wrote: A 'mother' or a 'father' entails certain boundaries and rules, but we can all agree that a lot of mothers and fathers are extremely different from one another, even though their roles adhere to the same rules.
Within your (personal) cultural experience.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
US Military generals share political opinions quite regularly, and some quite famously so. Quite a few of them have shared strong anti-war views even, some have advocated for complete nuclear annihilation of other countries who we have not even necessarily been in open conflict with.
Calling Rachel 'rowdy' for basically saying that while no government is perfect, HER GOVERNMENT is still worth fighting for and being loyal to, and that the terrorists should surrender because their cause/the way they're going about their cause is totally wrong?
What sense does that make. In fact among some of the other characters in the [LN], Rachel is a staunch militarist and one of the first to invoke patriotism in order to motivate others. Admitting that no government is infallible does not make her unfit for command, neither does sharing an opinion regarding privatized police forces, especially when the overall point was that while some decisions made by the government are questionable, the government of Liberty is still RIGHT, and the "Commonwealth of Liberty", is still a fallacy, and a cause not worth dying for.
I really don't understand how you're not seeing this, or why you're focusing on one minor part of what was said overall, especially when what was said, was said in order to illustrate the fact that THE REPUBLIC OF LIBERTY IS NOT A MILITARY DICTATORSHIP, and so no, the military cannot do whatever it wants to whomever it wants, contrary to what the Hellfire Legion/Commonwealth want people to believe.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 02:09 AM)Jihadjoe Wrote:(07-24-2015, 01:40 AM)Mímir Wrote: A 'mother' or a 'father' entails certain boundaries and rules, but we can all agree that a lot of mothers and fathers are extremely different from one another, even though their roles adhere to the same rules.
Within your (personal) cultural experience.
Well that of course depends on the scope of the inquiry. There are biological markers, behavior attributed to hormones etc. that are independent of culture or creed. Emotional structures that we are all - in our capacity as human beings - submitted to and shaped by.
I could be wrong, but I'd really like to see spontaneous public anti-war and anti-institution statements from a US general still in service - if you can point me in the right direction, I'll read it and revise my opinion. We all learn something new every day, and I appreciate that greatly.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 02:08 AM)LunaticOnTheGrass Wrote: I'd like proof of Admiral Baker's birth within Liberty. Why is she hiding her certificate?
I love you.