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+--- Thread: Liberty Navy [LN] (/showthread.php?tid=11128)
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RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
@Jonas Valent, I do not think that LPI should be dismantled, I am me and not my character, stop trying to make this about me you utter tool.
That "Secret Conspiracy Power Rulers Chat", as it was named, is and was always a joke, a respite from the drama that takes place in LibGov sometimes, please do not try to say that you actually believe it held any meaning whatsoever. LOOK AT THE NAME OF THE DAMN CHAT, and look at your accusations...the damn name is a JOKE regarding people with the very attitude that you are here displaying now.
@Mimir - those talks don't happen on the level of President to Terrorist Leader, not really. It's more like: US Military commander (Maybe a General, maybe somebody well below, like a Captain) leading troops into a village known to support insurgent forces, and speaking with the tribal councils there, trying to discern what it is that they want/need in order to be convinced to see that the US/whatever local government we're there supporting, really is the best way forward, even if it isn't perfect.
And/or yes, threatening them, telling them that their cause is meaningless etc
When this is successful, what it accomplishes is that it takes away mid level and sometimes high level people, and lots of foot soldiers and low level people, from these anti-government forces, and puts them at least on neutral terms with the local governments, and in some cases even turns them into pro-government militia forces, who then fight their former compatriots.
If you can demoralize/turn midlevel leaders and their followers, then people like Bin Laden, won't have an army to carry out their agenda, or they'll have to waste time/resources to recruit more people, which weakens them even further, when other high profile leadership members are being blown up or captured left and right.
There's plenty of available source material for you to read regarding that.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Jonas Valent - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 03:28 AM)Sarawr!? Wrote: @Jonas Valent, I do not think that LPI should be dismantled, I am me and not my character, stop trying to make this about me you utter tool.
That "Secret Conspiracy Power Rulers Chat", as it was named, is and was always a joke, a respite from the drama that takes place in LibGov sometimes, please do not try to say that you actually believe it held any meaning whatsoever. LOOK AT THE NAME OF THE DAMN CHAT, and look at your accusations...the damn name is a JOKE regarding people with the very attitude that you are here displaying now.
Yes because anyone who disagrees with you deserves to be made fun of behind their back. Specifically one member of LibGov that you all openly treated with contempt and several times discussed LibGov business in there to specifically keep this person in the dark. I find your post amusing because though the name was more of a joke the substance of the conversations in the chat was not. Kinda hard to take you seriously when I was in that chat and saw what you all said until of course I informed the others in LibGov about your little chat then you were wise enough to stop posting there.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
I left Discovery for several months, due to real life events, but if you want to believe that's why I stopped posting, you go right ahead.
And for the record, I haven't been a part of LibGov, or Libgov decision making in well over a year.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Jihadjoe - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 03:01 AM)Mímir Wrote: EDIT: Joe, you are absolutely right that those roles and positions and thus the structure is fluid and changes over time. That's real life.Correct.
(07-24-2015, 03:01 AM)Mímir Wrote: But if we do not base our shared fiction on those familiar structures (I'll have you know that Vanilla Freelancer in most points share exact cultural traits with contemporary-ish society), then everything is up to debate. Why doesn't military align with pirates? Why doesn't traders buddy up with terrorists?
This frequently happens. During the Liberty/Rheinland war, we would often see Rogues, Xenos or even Lane Hackers siding with the LN against Rheinland forces... Likewise the Hessians and Unioners would often fight alongside the RM, even to the point of launching attacks into Liberty at the same time. Additionally, the Libertonians have long been neutral with the Blood Dragons, GC and Bundschuh among others. Not everything is painted in shades of black and white - or rather, red and green.
(07-24-2015, 03:01 AM)Mímir Wrote: If everything is up in the air, is an admiral just a random word with no meaning attached at all? Is everything relative, and if so how on earth is that conducive to social story crafting? How is it even possible to perform social roleplay if there's no shared basis or understanding? And if new meaning is to be attached, is it up to the official faction players to do so at a whim? When I roleplay my Liberty Navy character, can I totally disregard an admirals order on the basis that "an admiral is something else 900 years out in the future"?
You can inflate anything to ridiculous proportions if you blow enough air into it, right?
To an extent, you are correct - there does have to be a shared understanding, and contemporary cultural norms are as good a starting point as any. But that is precisely what they are... A starting point, from which things can change and alter. This is the nature of social storytelling... That people will pull threads out in different directions, altering and changing the fictional makeup of the setting and their characters' place within it.
However, with this particular example, Sarah has endeavored (in my opinion successfully) to show that high ranking military personel making personal statements is not unknown. It fits within our general cultural understanding... It certainly fits within my personal cultural understanding if not yours.
Even if it did not fit within my understanding of contemporary culture, it would be "close enough" to be acceptable. I wouldn't question it in the same way that I would question, say, an independantly operating nine year old bounty hunter.
You asked;
Quote:is it up to the official faction players to do so at a whim?
How many times have people with a similar attitude to the one you hold regarding official factions, berated those official factions about "restricting the roleplay freedom of indies - they should be allowed to do things you see as illogical, because you have no authority over them." ?
What gives you the right to question this, while other people do not have the right to question it? I know that I certainly do not have the authority to question anything that falls within the "close enough" range... So why do you?
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
(07-24-2015, 03:28 AM)Sarawr!? Wrote: @Mimir - those talks don't happen on the level of President to Terrorist Leader, not really. It's more like: US Military commander (Maybe a General, maybe somebody well below, like a Captain) leading troops into a village known to support insurgent forces, and speaking with the tribal councils there, trying to discern what it is that they want/need in order to be convinced to see that the US/whatever local government we're there supporting, really is the best way forward, even if it isn't perfect.
And/or yes, threatening them, telling them that their cause is meaningless etc.
When this is successful, what it accomplishes is that it takes away mid level and sometimes high level people, and lots of foot soldiers and low level people, from these anti-government forces, and puts them at least on neutral terms with the local governments, and in some cases even turns them into pro-government militia forces, who then fight their former compatriots.
There's plenty of available source material for you to read regarding that.
Well I never questioned that. Of course that is a given. That's why all militaries employ interpreters. And you are also right that these practical talks are not carried out by generals, admirals and the likes. It's lower level.
I question if military officials would denounce or criticize the US and its institutions during those talks, and you really do need to back that up with evidence if you are going to hold on to that particular statement.
EDIT:
(07-24-2015, 03:42 AM)Jihadjoe Wrote: This frequently happens. During the Liberty/Rheinland war, we would often see Rogues, Xenos or even Lane Hackers siding with the LN against Rheinland forces... Likewise the Hessians and Unioners would often fight alongside the RM, even to the point of launching attacks into Liberty at the same time. Additioanlly, the Libertonians have long been neutral with the Blood Dragons, GC and Bundschuh among others. Not everything is painted in shades of black and white - or rather, red and green.
I think allegiances and affiliation is a slightly different topic than what we are discussing here. Also, at that time everything allied against the evil RNC that was destroying the community and never cared for roleplay - even Bounter Hunter ID players were shooting krauts. In fact, I had an admin show up to launch a pre-emptive assault on our fleet of idling RNC caps in Texasburg, warning us all about impending doom and sanctions while we were doing nothing but sitting still 20K off plane, scratching our bums.
You'll have to forgive me, but I see that more of a result of a mob-like oorp mentality than as roleplay.
(07-24-2015, 03:42 AM)Jihadjoe Wrote: But that is precisely what they are... A starting point, from which things can change and alter. This is the nature of social storytelling... That people will pull threads out in different directions, altering and changing the fictional makeup of the setting and their characters' place within it.
Well that's swell, but how does it work when one individual player subscribes to their own personal interpretation in the larger setting? If say, I was to decide that 9 year old admirals really is a possibility - I mean, who knows? It's 900 years into the future, why couldn't they have developed a drug that boosts development of the brain? I mean, why wouldn't they? Catgirl - why not? Gene-therapy, mixing human and cat DNA. It could happen. 900 years is a long time.
How are we all supposed to deal with each other and our roles if things are so random? When I write stories about my catgirl or my 9 year old admiral, I force them upon other players even though it is never my intention - especially if I am an official faction member. There's that thing about responsibility when you are an official faction member, and I think part of that is also the responsibility to respect the wider setting, rather than my own personal desires.
(07-24-2015, 03:42 AM)Jihadjoe Wrote: How many times have people with a similar attitude to the one you hold regarding official factions, berated those official factions about "restricting the roleplay freedom of indies - they should be allowed to do things you see as illogical, because you have no authority over them." ?
Well I can't answer for others, but I never advocated for indies' rights to "[...] be allowed to do things you see as illogical, because you have no authority over them." I advocated for indies' right to carry out their roleplay when it is equally or less dumb than the official faction's. I don't think that's so preposterous.
(07-24-2015, 03:42 AM)Jihadjoe Wrote: What gives you the right to question this, while other people do not have the right to question it? I know that I certainly do not have the authority to question anything that falls within the "close enough" range... So why do you?
Ok to be fair Joe, you can hardly say that you don't think you have the authority to question stuff, as you have certainly done so quite heavily in several discussions we've both been involved in. In fact, you haven't even questioned things, you've flat out labelled and judged things. The RNC thing was a good example, I was part of that on the other side, and you made quite a lot of judgements, assumptions and labelling, and you seemed like you felt justified to do so. I don't think that is justified, but I do think that all of us - as community members and players on the server - have the authority to question just about anything. I thoroughly believe that the only way to improve is to receive feedback. In that light, questions is in my opinion the best MO as it prompts you to think for yourself.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
Rachel made a general statement of opinion regarding corporations having a lot of power within Liberty, and how she didn't like that, and she used the LPI as an example, and then went on to state that if Liberty were ruled by a Military Dictatorship (as the Hellfire folks like to seem to claim) she could simply disband the LPI if she wanted to, but that it is not in fact ruled by a military dictatorship, so she can't.
This is not denouncing Liberty, and it's really not even denouncing the LPI, it's in fact proving her point that Liberty isn't a military dictatorship, and that it's system of governance is more just and fair than the Hellfire Legion/Commonwealth claims, and than that of the so-called "Commonwealth" itself.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Mímir - 07-24-2015
She didn't say "she could simply disband the LPI if she wanted to". She said she wanted to disband the LPI. She would "absolutely disband any privatized police forces" if she could. Again, a colossal difference.
I don't know what you are thinking, I only have access to what you write, and that is what you wrote. Maybe if you look at the words written in the comms posts with a fresh set of eyes, you'll see what it is I am trying to convey and why it is a slight problem?
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sarawr!? - 07-24-2015
I do see absolutely why it could be a problem for some people inRP, and I do see why she could face a potential reprimand, although not for being treasonous or traitorous, but rather for bad PR, and probably nothing major would come as a result of this.
What I don't see is why this has become such a big deal out of RP.
I've seen this all since the very beginning, and I've stated this so many times now I'm beginning to feel a little ridiculous.
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Sol - 07-24-2015
The statement is in RP, made by an RP character. She happens to be at a position of high rank, though she still has superiors even within her own faction.
She could be given a warning by her own faction within roleplay for what she said. If they found it really unacceptable in RP, that is. But that's not the case, the 1iC of [LN] has already spoken about the Navy's iRP stance in this thread.
They simply do not think it is of enough importance to intervene. And that's also an iRP choice made by the faction.
I do believe it is quite acceptable... and in no way similar to what the junkers tried to do.
The RP background of LPI is quite unusual compared to the real world. They are, like many factions, probably not liked by many people in their own world. They did and do questionable things, besides also doing good things for profit. (at faction level, that is. of course individual characters will have their own motivations)
However, the LPI would not be what it is if they really would be upset by a comment like this. Despite all the criticism and opposition, they'll continue to be a power. Because it seems it is quite profitable for them, and their marketing strategies and other measures work quite well, well enough to keep the level of opposition from being troublesome for them.
You're all assuming that the Navy itself must love the LPI, and they could be discouraged from making such small comments like these here and there. I think it is wholly acceptable for the Navy to even detest LPI and vice versa. So the statement made by Baker is wholly acceptable still. And it could (and should) only bring iRP repercussions, by the opponents of that statement.
Coming here and complaining about it shows that you guys still need to learn your RP shizzle.
As for why the Junker thing caused so many problems... They just simply did not realize that bringing guns and a friggin' giant killer robot into the court would create a scene that would probably end up with those junkers being labeled as terrorists and criminals.
You see, there's enough similarities between that robot and a suicide bomber exploding up in court. No matter how I look at it, if it would be accepted as a legit RP and Liberty played along with it, took over from that threat, it would end up being very bloody in there, and for the Junker faction... they'd regret what they did... and cause things for themselves they really did not ask for.
It was not supposed to end up like that.
This case is not the same level. And any RP repercussions resulting from this is quite acceptable in my opinion. So no need to complain all over the place. I do not think LPI and the Navy should be in love with each other. But I think the Government has enough control over them, enough to keep things from getting dangerously sour.
So please, play along. Hate each other if you will. I'd like to see the result in game, with your roleplaying.
But you are just complaining in an OORP manner in forums. Not a way for official faction members to behave. Not what is expected of you.
I can't believe what I am hearing from the members of LibGov, hating on each other like that. That's really, well unprofessional? Every spot has a responsibility. If you use it for e-peen waving, and want to be at such spots for that reason, you'll make everyone's experiences here a mess. It's disgusting.
If you can't provide excitement and fun for the faction you are playing, for all the little players playing around where your responsibility lies, you should quit right now and leave your spot to someone who can make that happen instead of getting into these sour arguments.
If you want to just be concerned by your own faction and fun, give up your officialdom now, because there's no reason for you to be so... That's what the unofficials do. Some do a lot better than you at providing fun for the people around them.
Play your role, make interesting things happen. Stop being a brat. Stop sucking at this so much.
What could be turned into a very interesting RP topic turned into this stupid mess by official faction members, griefing all over the place because of their little past experiences. Always making this disco place harder and less fun to play in, as time goes on.
PS. You are stupid.
PPS. Yes, I realize the last line is me griefing too.
PPPS. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RE: Liberty Navy [LN] - Jonas Valent - 07-24-2015
Quote: But you are just complaining in an OORP manner in forums. Not a way for official faction members to behave. Not what is expected of you.
Check out the LPI feedback to see who started the ooRP complaining.