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+--- Thread: Transports (/showthread.php?tid=11296)
Transports - BaconSoda - 08-15-2008
Alright, I brought this up before, but I will bring it up again. I would like to apologize in advance to anyone that I might offend with this, or if it is being discussed elsewhere. I also apologize if this is ends up being a rant, as it's rather late.
What is there that can really scare a trader these days? Pirates can do little to actually make a trader stop and RP. Pirating isn't done for money, but to RP with people. This is extremely hard when traders have little to fear from pirates. I say they have little to fear because Transports have extremely high Armor by default, and, fi purchased, extremely high shield.
Please, look here. Is it just me, or are these comparable to the gunboat section of this?
After doing some very basic calculations, I have found the average gunboat armor, Nomad and Scorpion Gunboats excluded, to be 102,300. The average transport armor, Luxury, Prison, and Royal Liners excluded, is 92,500. Is it me, or is this kind of contradictory to the fact that these are civilian ships, not designed to endure sustained combat, yet they have an average armor comparable to military ships used to endure sustained combat.
Now, apply an armor upgrade MK VIII or a capital ship armor upgrade, and the numbers become unbearable. I am not a balance expert, and I have no clue what the average damage output of a pirating vessel, but I am fairly confident that they cannot match up to the armor and shields of a Transport in my experience as a pirate.
I understand the fact that if a pirate is in a bomber, and it comes upon an average transport, a single Supernova may destroy it. I understand how this may be a problem when pirating occurs, where, even if a trader has an escort, a pirate may simply SN it and ignore the escort.
However, is this not realistic? If I do remember correctly, a pair of Corsair fighters pirated a Gateway Convoy, composed of two large transports, and destroyed it without breaking a sweat. NPC transports are easy as heck to destroy, even a Starflier can do it, and I don't call for a nerf of such proportions, but Traders need to be afraid of pirates in some way.
Rules can always be imposes protecting pirates from things like escort-ignoring, such as a requisite time that must pass before a pirate may focus on a Transport, but, right now, it takes two Supernovas to kill some transports without armor upgrades, and even more with an armor upgrade. Even small, maneuverable transports are capable of taking a beating, even from bombers, with armor upgrades. It's nearing ridiculous, and transports don't even have a reason to hire escorts.
Gunboats, Bombers, and Fighters are designed to be combat vessels for usage by Military Purposes. Why is it that Civilian Transports designed to move goods have comparable armor to a Capital Ship Classes vessel, and can sustain damage from a Military Vessel specifically designed to destroy Capital Ships? It just doesn't seem, right to me.
Now, I might have been repeating myself a little bit, but I do think that Transports require a nerf of some sort. Thusly, I call for a reduction in their armor and shields, as that is where they are most unbalanced, in my opinion.
Now, then, please excuse me while I don a flame retardant suit, and prepare something self-esteem lifting for when this is shot down.
Transports - Tenacity - 08-15-2008
I think SOME transports need their armor nerfed, some need it buffed though.
Many of the heavier transports (as in more cargo space) have weaker hulls as a balance (or should). Advanced trains, for example... there's no way they can have so much armor when all of their cargo pods are so exposed - it needs to have low armor.
Some transports, like the container transport, royal liner, luxury liner, prison ship, etc. probably need an armor buff up to cruiser-level armor. They're designed with fending off attacks in mind - they have a lot of guns and a lot of armor, but sacrafice a little cargo space for it and are fairly expensive.
Transports - El Nino - 08-15-2008
Well transports should be balanced to VHF's, probably they are, but I have a hard time taking it down when the trader doesn't shoot back at me...
It is hard thou to balance this correctly... making a trader weak while at the same time make it survivable enough so the escorts can do their work... Perhaps nerfing all the "tradelane" transports, such as trains and such... While even boosting some borderworlds types... such as firefly for example... Ships that have in their description that they are tough...
Transports - Tenacity - 08-15-2008
' Wrote:Well transports should be balanced to VHF's, probably they are, but I have a hard time taking it down when the trader doesn't shoot back at me...
It is hard thou to balance this correctly... making a trader weak while at the same time make it survivable enough so the escorts can do their work... Perhaps nerfing all the "tradelane" transports, such as trains and such... While even boosting some borderworlds types... such as firefly for example... Ships that have in their description that they are tough...
The problem is that if you balance transports to be average against VHF's or even weak to VHF's, the bombers will be capable of blasting them in a couple shots (most transports you can take out with 2 supernova shots anyways).
With the majority of pirates out there flying bombers and gunboats, that's really what we end up having to balance the transports against.
Transports - Dusty Lens - 08-15-2008
Coming from a solo Xeno bomber:
I have absolutely zero problem taking out a 3000 and less cargo transport (aside from the A trans).
I have increasing difficulty tackling larger ships. Liners pose a greater challenge while advanced trains piloted by decent pilots stand a very good chance of escaping.
Coming from a solo Gunboat:
I have absolutely zero problem taking out anything short of a well armored liner or container transport.
I consider myself a mediocre pilot at best in both vessels. Give me backup from a vessel of similar weight class or lower and there is no fight. Adjust the outcome accordingly by the number of traders versus the number of pirates.
If you're going to balance tradeships against VHF, then you need to remove gunboats from the class of ship that can pirate them. As it stands two VHF can take down virtually any solo transport.
Transports need to be tough and what you're asking for is essentially a zero win situation on the end of the trader.
Transports - n00bl3t - 08-15-2008
It doesn't need to be changed. I've been killed by trains and I've been killed by bombers. It's fine as is.
Transports - Clarkie - 08-15-2008
I agree with Dusty Lens but with a slightly less reasoned argument.. Pirating should involve some WORK, and should never be risk free. Damn lazy bums.. :lol:
Transports - sovereign - 08-15-2008
Yeah, but four container transports shouldn't be able to eat battleships for breakfast either...
Transports are supposed to be helpless. If you take an example from the NPCs, a lone transport is a dead transport- even if their survival capabilities are left untouched their firepower is insane for their role. Seriously, put a ctrans or lux liner up against a gunboat or even a light cruiser and I'll be betting on the ctrans/lux liner. Either they need to be made more fragile (shield nerf preferably so they actually have to notice NPCs like everything else) or their firepower made reasonable- for starters, the infinite powerplant is a no-go. Speaking as a fighter-jock, GB pirater, and transport pilot that has capital ship kills (plural) under his belt, something needs fixing.
Transports - El Nino - 08-15-2008
That's the thing, you must fly a bomber or you are the underdog, Gunboats do their job with ease, so nothing said there... Bombers are in a class of their own when it comes to taking down large objects...
Bombers are high tech weapons of war. Surtenly they should be able to easily take down a tradeship...
Gunboats are capital ships... taking down traders should be an easy but not primary task...
VHF's and Freighters should be ideal pirate ships, and these should be able to take out the traders...
As a solo trader I know that if a VHF tries to pirate me I engage without a second thought and destroy them. I was never sucessfuly pirated by a VHF. Heck once I took down two VHF's and a bomber in my Hogosha Kusari Transport...
Some transport ships can be used as a gunboat, eventhou you have about one half the firepower, you have everything else... shields, armor, accurate fast projectiles...
Hm, thinking about it perhaps if the transport turrets were nerfed ... All could be well and gritty. Limiting their firepower, while keeping the defensive measures high...
Transports - mjolnir - 08-15-2008
First my answers:
Armor can be lowered a little
Shield is fine (quite slow recharge is what balances it)
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Generally I think their are fine
I can pirate anything alone in VHF (that is set up for pirating!!!) and there are ships that are made for pirating as well - Titan with Corsair shieldbusters, Werewolf with 4 Codes + Debilitator....
Yes it might be difficult in VHF, but both sides have a fair chance, the one that's better wins. Only problem is a Luxury liner but that one should imo be severely ID restricted (to OSC only maybe).
So it's usually close and fun for both sides, sure if a poor pilot tries to pirate my transport he gets beaten. But that's because I can aim and hit him better than he can fly.
2 VHFs have no problems with anything.
So if you don't want "fair" fights, you get a bomber I don't see any problem with that. Some pirate bombers are made for pirating much more than anything else - like the Barghest.
If you have a bomber you get a bit more vulnerable to escorts or navy/military/armed forces fighter patrols. So that's fine again.
If you get a GB you mostly can't pirate near proper NPCs concentrations (without having to work hard) since you get hit more often, you most also focus more on keeping close to the transport since he thrusts as fast as you. It is also much more difficult to run if a lawful patrol shows up and you can't defeat them.