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+--- Thread: Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? (/showthread.php?tid=11334)
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Dusty Lens - 08-16-2008
In times past I was a strong advocate for the idea that Junkers retained their lawful/neutral status in the eyes of Bounty Hunters/the law until such a time came that they were caught in the act of transgressing it.
However, the recent less than subtle alliance with the Harvesters has been causing me to question this.
Despite repeat insistences on the forums that the relationship shared by the two entities is a secret one and no possible harm could come of it, the war in 15 being waged against the Bounty Hunters and (witness on my own behalf more often than not) multiple threats against my bounty hunter/other chars who would dare stop a Junker (LPI, Zoner in Baffin, so on and so forth) that any interference as to their doings would result in my having the Harvesters 'sicked' on me.
I discussed the issue with a few other folks and they testified to similar experiences.
So I'm wondering to myself if a body should really care anymore if Junkers find themselves teetering ever closer to simply being declared an outlaw body due to their associations and blatant employment of the same.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Jinx - 08-16-2008
in my opinion, it is measured on an individual base - and cannot be generalized. - today for example, i stopped a slave transport. - the transport was convinced to comply - and he dropped the cargo ( i followed it from texas to bering )
now, the BHG has no REAL authority there of course, but who would believe a slaver when he went to the police and complained.... .
now a junker commented that incident in system chat - clearly questioning my actions ( in RP ). - now, this is a junker that has taken sides - "slightly" against the BHG, by questioning the guilds actions. - the way i consider the junkers, a junker would NOT comment such an incident, but simply stay quite and in the background, cause it is not his business.
however, if junkers do make it their business, they become subject of consideration, and by that - they can be considered unfriendly or unconvenient in a certain situation. - if some *nobody* questioned what the guild does, they would put themselves into the focus - so any junker must decide himself if he likes to stay in the dark - or wants to step into the focus. - once in the focus, chances are that he is labelled with an affiliation for or against the BHG .... and he ll have to live with the consequences.
does the actions of one junker reflect upon all other junkers? - no.... its like zoners... just cause one causes trouble doesn t mean all do. ( trouble in terms of RP )
for the BHG, junkers are "unimportant" ... they CAN make themselves important though... for the good or the bad. - their diplomacy ( like allying with harvesters ) or keeping quite is up to them.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Tenacity - 08-16-2008
If you're referring to the situation in omega 15, it's a bit different than within the houses. Bounty hunters still dont have a 'right' to attack junkers on sight as far as I'm concerned, unless the bounty hunter would profit from the act.
Still, most bounty hunter players ignore that entirely. We've had fleets of DW battlecruisers and destroyers 'camp' bornholme depot, destroying anyone that launches - junker or otherwise. With that kind of behavior coming from the bounty hunters, I've got no qualms in "sicking" our harvester allies against any bounty hunters who attempt to invade that area, which I now consider junker territory (the area around bornholme, not all of omega 15).
Were you the bounty hunter gunship we dealt with today, by chance? I stayed out of that engagement after making a deal with the bounty hunter to give up the junker pilots he was carrying, it was the harvester's decision to go after him, I called them off for the transaction.
Harvesters have their own set of 'protocols' - they dont like bounty hunters, or any other non-junkers to be honest - so it was his decision to chase you down, not mine.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Dusty Lens - 08-16-2008
' Wrote:Were you the bounty hunter gunship we dealt with today, by chance? I stayed out of that engagement after making a deal with the bounty hunter to give up the junker pilots he was carrying, it was the harvester's decision to go after him, I called them off for the transaction.
Harvesters have their own set of 'protocols' - they dont like bounty hunters, or any other non-junkers to be honest - so it was his decision to chase you down, not mine.
No, I wasn't. I've not actually gone through 15 on my BH, place is too sticky and when I'm flying him I'm doing it to chase down someone specific to score a bounty. I stick to the houses, chiefly Bretonia as its purdy.
My thinking on the subject was largely academic. There are many examples here abouts of persons or groups as a whole conducting themselves as though it were the last day on earth, with that mindset of 'the actions of today carry nothing to tomorrow' being the guiding star for smugglers who elect to quick dock on lawful bases lol Junkers to fly about in pirate transports and lawfuls to trudge their silly battleships into the badlands only to have it get nixed without any real repercussions.
The Bounty Hunter that I mentioned had the above mentioned threat delivered to me in Leeds by a Junker carrying cracked software to Arranmore, something I didn't give a hoot about as their wasn't any fiscal reason for me to lift a finger. The threat about the Harvesters was delivered pro-actively.
The LPI was stopping a smuggler in NY while the Zoner was (of course) in Baffin as a smuggler (smuggler ID junker tag) replied to my inquiries with threats concerning Harvester reprisal if I came between him and the jumphole.
All of these events have taken place of a long period of time, but it's given me pause to consider why it seems so unthinkable that there may be long term repercussions for the associations that you keep and decisions that you make. While it could be said that the Junkers as a whole are not willing to call upon the services of the Harveys, how many precedents has history set where governments take the actions as a whole over the repeat actions of the few to determine policy?
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Tenacity - 08-16-2008
any junker openly using harvesters as a threat isnt a junker at all. The harvesters do not "work for us", they are merely allies.
That's like a gaian saying "OMG Bretonians if you shoot me I'll have the corsairs invade!" - not gonna happen.
It's even more out of line when the junker is not factionalised - if he's just some no-name smuggler, he's not likely to get support from anyone, much less the harvesters who have their own agenda to carry out.
Anyways, what happened today is I logged onto JU-Midgard to check out omega 15 for 'threats', and there's this bounty hunter in a BH gunship at max range named domino something. I ask him what his business is for being in junker 'territory', and he says he's got a few junker pilots in his hold that he wants a 'ransom' for.
At the time we had four harvester units and an explorer, plus myself with a corsair gunboat, in omega 15. Needless to say this guy was severely outnumbered. I told him that I'd pay him a small amount in exchange for the junker pilots and he'd be "allowed to leave". We met up by the omega 41 jump hole, made the transaction, no big deal.
He jumped to omega 41, and was immediately pursued by harvester 17 (scorn's cruiser, I think). Now, in private chat, I told harvester 17 that i wanted that Gunship destroyed after I had the junker pilots safely in my hold - no bounty hunter is going to run around with junker prisoners if I've got anything to say about it. i didnt directly engage the bounty hunter, but I did "sick" the harvesters on him, and they were more than happy to oblige - they really hate bounty hunters anyways.
A junker will never openly use the harvesters as a threat, but that doesnt mean a well-established junker wont privately try to get them to go after specific targets during their "harvesting" sprees.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - RParade - 08-16-2008
.. Eh, well..
Personally, I've never percieved the Harvesters as being the "bloodhounds" of the Junkers.
Harvesters just defend us (whether we ask them or not), and they attack anyone they want. An "alliance" like this really should be kept low profile, for obvious reasons - association with the Harvesters alone I would say is enough for a House/faction to declare you an enemy of the state, let alone openly saying "I'll get the Harvesters after you!"
In terms of what I see and experience most often, both sides need to give a little.
Junkers for example, really need to stop acting like bratty, untouchable criminals in New York (I see this happening alot). If you get caught committing a crime/smuggling, pay the fine the lawfuls ask for and get it over with. That's probably what any real Junker would do. Sometimes it's better to sit behind the throne rather than to sit directly upon it, and this tends to be the philosophy that Junkers stick too. It's no wonder so many Militaries/Bounty Hunters want to pop the rest of us when there's so many other Junkers who'll sit and mock local authorities after committing a crime. Think realistically - no real criminal sits around and brags about the jobs he's pulled off, especially to the authorities who would punish him for it harshly.
As far as Bounty Hunters go, there's still just too many of them acting like police/military. It doesn't matter where you are, if you encounter a Bounty Hunter and you're smuggling, odds are he's going to try and stop you. It's getting worse lately, because Bounty Hunters just make up RP excuses to pursue anyone (IE: I'll get paid 100k to stop your smuggling operation, etc - when in reality they aren't getting paid anything). Bounty Hunters also need to stop camping Junker bases (basecamping to begin with is just poor RP, regardless of who you are or who you're doing it to). It'd be nice if Bounty Hunters would just stop harrassing smugglers all of the time and stuck to pirate hunting. Sure, if you want to nail/pop the occasional smuggler (even if it is a Junker), go ahead, but don't do it all of the time. You guys aren't meant to be law enforcers.
I've been so fed up with both sides lately that I haven't touched either of my Junkers in about a week now. If it isn't some random, speechless battlecruiser creating his own bounty to pursue you, then it's some childish Junker screaming over system chat about how awesome he is because he made it through Alaska with Cardamine - it's so bad recently that it's defeating the point of playing a Junker altogether, since just about every player faction on the server hates you now. Junkers are becoming just another black and white pirate faction because so many Junker players are pushing it that way, and that isn't what I signed up for.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Tenacity - 08-16-2008
That's one of the things I'm trying to stop with the creation of the Junker's Union. People who join up -will- learn how to behave like real junkers, or they wont stay in the group for long. I'm already requesting all potential applicants send me written biographies of their characters in order to join up.
The issue however, like you said, is mainly in liberty - and we dont operate there. The JU is, for the most part, restricted to rheinland, sigma, and omega space - we'll only travel into the other houses occasionally on political matters. All trade we run is between the areas detailed above - though we may run into any of the borderworlds or parts of bretonia for goods.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - ProwlerPC - 08-16-2008
Guys,
I thought the situation between DW and the Harvestors are a faction despute that puts the Harvestors as hostile in the eyes of DW.
As an agent of S/D I have met with the Harvestors on a couple of occasions, they are junkers and therefore are neutral in my eyes until a bounty is made.
DW are some kind of alien other-dimension BH group. Their war against Harvestors have not been acknowledged by S/D unless we are paid to be involved.
So far as I know all Junkers remain Neutral in the eyes of S/D.
Heck I'll even toss a cargo load of pirate pilots to the Harvestors to use as they see fit :P
They know many areas in Sirius and can be usefull.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Dusty Lens - 08-16-2008
' Wrote:any junker openly using harvesters as a threat isnt a junker at all. The harvesters do not "work for us", they are merely allies.
That's rather one of the focuses of the point, though. The Junkers are allied, grant shelter to and so on, to one of the more fiendish enemies in the good times history of humanity.
In the past they were able to get by not showing a strong preference to any party, from Outcasts to the Corsairs to the law, they were always open to getting ahead to the benefit of one side and detriment of the other.
To say that a Junker who performs such an action isn't a 'true' Junker is rubbish as is the statement about 'factionalized' Junkers. The position of a unified body carries more weight against the whole than the actions of an individual, true, but as the Junkers as a whole are conducting themselves in a increasingly militant fashion with the advent of their new alliance with the Harvesters it stands to reason the Bounty Hunters would look upon this evolution of politics and adjust their hostilities accordingly.
Do the Junkers still have immunity from random BH attacks? - Dusty Lens - 08-16-2008
' Wrote:Guys,
I thought the situation between DW and the Harvestors are a faction despute that puts the Harvestors as hostile in the eyes of DW.
As an agent of S/D I have met with the Harvestors on a couple of occasions, they are junkers and therefore are neutral in my eyes until a bounty is made.
DW are some kind of alien other-dimension BH group. Their war against Harvestors have not been acknowledged by S/D unless we are paid to be involved.
So far as I know all Junkers remain Neutral in the eyes of S/D.
Heck I'll even toss a cargo load of pirate pilots to the Harvestors to use as they see fit :P
They know many areas in Sirius and can be usefull.
O_o
Well, if the Bounty Hunters love the Harvesters I stand corrected!
*goes to look for the pieces of his shattered mind*